[1.0.0.8] Big Al's Ray of Awesomeness [Aether/Fire AAR]

[Elementoid]

Soldier and Shaman both offer something that Arcanists traditionally lack: Defenses. I agree that Occultist and Nightblade wouldn’t help much, but the defense offered by Soldier and Shaman both FAR outweigh Blast Shield.

Are you actually being serious? The amount of support Soldier and Shaman gives to AAR is nothing compared to Demolitionist. Flashbang and Blastshield both are great contributors to defense, and while you can argue that Shaman and Soldier boosts defense better, it is still horribly inefficient and unwise to take a class just for 2 skills and its mastery points. Compare to the amount of relative damage potential from Demolitionist such as Flametouched and Vindictive Flame, it really isn’t even worth a debate on which class supports AAR the best from the three. Sure, extra defenses are always nice, but that is completely dwarfed by the damage increase from Demo.

Arcanists do not lack defense on their own, with their Maiven’s Sphere of Protection and Mirror. You can argue that the caster armor they usually wear makes them lacking on defense, but they are not tanking nearly as much as traditional Soldiers or Shamans. There is a big difference between statistical and practical survivability.

As I said before, AAR has damage to spare, by FAR. As long as you hit 150% Cast Speed minimum, and keep up at least a 90% Hit Chance on bosses/Nemesis, then AAR is fine on damage, so the OA out of Demo, while nice, isn’t really needed.

At this point, I am pretty sure you have not played any other builds, or even bothered to learn about them. If you have, you should know that AAR does not have damage to spare, especially your specifications. Your standard for “good” damage is very very low; is “good” damage, to your definition, being able to kill dummy within 10 minutes? Log’horrean within the hour? Just able to kill Mad Queen at all? At 90% hit chance, what are crits even?

You should come to know that many many other builds trump AAR in single target damage. Builds like DW Spellbreakers or Saboteur that can kill dummy in around 23 seconds and Mad Queen within 10 is by far superior. Other examples include builds like Savagery Ultos Elementalists, DEE Witch Hunters, or even officially dead Blademasters and many many others doesn’t even bat an eye to the single target damage, or the lack thereof, that AAR is doing. Not to mention all of the builds above, except for maybe Blademasters, have superior AoE effectiveness than AAR.

[1.0.0.8 Inverse Blademaster: Non-pierce, non-squishy, and definitely non-dead Blademaster]

Even officially dead average pierce BM beats this build by far.

I get the damage aspect, Demo has damage, nice…But you don’t need more damage, you’re running AAR. What you lack isn’t damage, it’s defenses…And Demo doesn’t really offer much of that. What they DO offer that’s nice is Blast Shield…Which only helps AFTER you got hit, and it’s not 100% uptime. Shaman and Soldier’s options both help all the time, in comparison.

I think the misconceptions you have there comes from your lack of damage, not the lack of defenses. Just because you are dying frequently doesn’t mean that increasing defenses is the way to go (it usually is but not in this case). You also have to consider that if you kill the enemies faster, your effective survivability goes up from not tanking as much enemy hits, and you certainly doesn’t have surplus damage when it comes to AAR. This misconception is probably why you like Soldier and Shaman over Demolitionist. Scary.

Just seems odd that the OP stresses that he doesn’t need more DPS, it’s AAR…but then picked a DPS class rather than a tankier one. Shrug.

OP is wrong to stress that damage is not a problem for AAR; however, that still doesn’t justify the need to pick a completely useless, albeit tanky, second class like Soldier or Shaman.

[Nssheepster]

Wow. So much vehement disagreement.

I still disagree on Demo, because the big points I’m seeing are:
1- You need more DPS, in various forms. I don’t think you do. If you can kill Ultimate Logh, that’s the core game, and I call that enough DPS. More is nice, but that’s what I see as the bare minimum build viability.
2- Flashbang is great! It is, I agree…AFTER you hit someone with it. Until then, it’s nothing. And OFC, the defenses it provides are, IMO, strictly worse than say, just getting Military Conditioning. And since I don’t agree you need more DPS, the only value I’d be judging on in this context would be defenses, so…Shrug.
2- Blast Shield is great for defenses! I disagree. Vastly. It works AFTER your health gets dinged, to give some resists that you should already have, some max resists you likely don’t really need, and OFC some generic damage absorbtion and some chance to avoid projectiles. At 12/12 rank, Blast Shield is basically a better Turtle…And we already have Turtle. Just get Turtle, and save all the points you threw in just to get all the way to Blast Shield. If you are going that deep into Demo for something else, then it’s nice to have as well as your other defenses. Going that deep into Demo just for it? Eh.

Keep in mind, before your replies get snarkier: Disagreement is allowed. These are opinions, NOT facts. Do not state your opinions as if they ARE facts, or it’s going to come across snarky and conceited. You’re welcome to play AAR any way you like, play the game any way you like, and define viability however you please. You’re not welcome to act like that is the only way to do so, or like I am “wrong” for not seeing things exactly your way. Open discourse is how clarity is found. Nobody can think of everything, that’s why you talk to people.

[kidpid]

2- Flashbang is great! It is, I agree…AFTER you hit someone with it. Until then, it’s nothing.

AAR is great! It is, I agree…AFTER you hit someone with it. Until then, it’s nothing.

[Nssheepster]

AAR is great! It is, I agree…AFTER you hit someone with it. Until then, it’s nothing.

One is a support skill. One is your damage source. Flashbang’s defenses mean nothing until you hit someone with it. As I was discussing the defensive aspect…My statement was valid. Your pedantry is noted, as is your inability to come up with a reasonable, and preferably polite, counter argument to my opinions.

[Thrasheur]

Ok Nssheepster … thanks to Elementoid to answer each of your post, cause i dont feel like im brave enough for this …
Disagreement is allowed, sure. Thats a fact ok.
But you’re wrong, and thats also a fact, not an opinion.
No doubt AAR can work with other classes, but demo is best for it, period. Aint an opinion, it’s because of what demo really offers by its skills, and if its not a fact, well i wonder, really wonder what it is, but for sure aint an opinion either.

[Nssheepster]

Ok Nssheepster … thanks to Elemntoid to answer each of your post, cause i dont feel like im brave enough for this …
Disagreement is allowed, sure. Thats a fact ok.
But you’re wrong, and thats also a fact, not an opinion.
No doubt AAR can work with other classes, but demo is best for it, period. Aint an opinion, it’s because of what demo really offers by its skills, and if its not a fact, well i wonder, really wonder what it is, but for sure aint an opinion either.

SMH. Best HOW? Who defines what’s best? If you can’t get every single person who plays this game to define what “best” means for AAR…Then no, BEST is never a fact. The very word is opinion based. When you get everyone who plays the game to agree to the exact same definition, THEN you can pretend that “best” is a fact in this specific context. Until then…No, what you have is an opinion. Opinion and Fact are not the same word for a good reason.

[Thrasheur]

Flashbang is great! It is, I agree…AFTER you hit someone with it. Until then, it’s nothing.

Is it a troll ? Im seriously asking, really.

No really.

But in the same idea, tomorrow ill post a cadence Spellbreaker build.

EDIT: Im out, seriously out of this talk or whatever it is.

[Thrasheur]

Best HOW? Who defines what’s best?

Skills and synergies between classes, but i guess its an opinion and not a fact.

Now im really out :rolleyes:

[Norzan]

2- Blast Shield is great for defenses! I disagree. Vastly. It works AFTER your health gets dinged, to give some resists that you should already have, some max resists you likely don’t really need, and OFC some generic damage absorbtion and some chance to avoid projectiles. At 12/12 rank, Blast Shield is basically a better Turtle…And we already have Turtle. Just get Turtle, and save all the points you threw in just to get all the way to Blast Shield. If you are going that deep into Demo for something else, then it’s nice to have as well as your other defenses. Going that deep into Demo just for it? Eh.

Blast Shield is not Turtle, at all. The Damage Absorption is for 4 seconds you’ll take less 850 damage at level 12, from every attack. It doesn’t drain, for those 4 seconds you are basically immortal that even Nemeses can barely scrape you.

Combine this with cooldown reduction from off-hands plus from some other items and you can have it up 80% of the time. Yes, you have to take damage, but it doesn’t matter because when you reach 60% you take little to no damage and you can heal it off while dealing damage.

Your posts just reeks of someone who hasn’t played Demo at all and if you did, did you actually use its skills to see what they did? Because from your posts it seem you didn’t. It seems you are comparing skills based on their descriptions and not how they actually function in battle.

[Nssheepster]

Blast Shield is not Turtle, at all. The Damage Absorption is for 4 seconds you’ll take less 850 damage at level 12, from every attack. It doesn’t drain, for those 4 seconds you are basically immortal that even Nemeses can barely scrape you.

Combine this with cooldown reduction from off-hands plus from some other items and you can have it up 80% of the time.

Your posts just reeks of someone who hasn’t played Demo at all and if you did, did you actually use its skills to see what they did? Because from your posts it seem you didn’t.

Or, it COULD be…That I HAVE, and I DISAGREE. I’ve played multiple Demos, and I’ve enjoyed them. I even have Blast Shield and Turtle on some of them. And you know what? I’m not immortal. I’ve 100% died with both Blast Shield and Turtle up, and I don’t build very squishy. I don’t know how you think Nemeses can’t scrape you, or what your build was…But Nemeses are pretty potent, so they still very much scrape every build I’ve ever made. I’ve even seen Nemesis scrape Ret Warder builds, which are nearly impossible to make NOT tanky as hell. So maybe, just maybe…Disagreement is allowed here.

Why is it everyone assumes that when I disagree with them, or do something in a way they wouldn’t have, that I am somehow unware of a “better” way or the “right” opinion? Disagreement can easily be based on the same data you’ve got, and still be there. I have no idea why this is a shock to some people.

[sfbistimg]

Or, it COULD be…That I HAVE, and I DISAGREE. I’ve played multiple Demos, and I’ve enjoyed them. I even have Blast Shield and Turtle on some of them. And you know what? I’m not immortal. I’ve 100% died with both Blast Shield and Turtle up, and I don’t build very squishy. I don’t know how you think Nemeses can’t scrape you, or what your build was…But Nemeses are pretty potent, so they still very much scrape every build I’ve ever made. I’ve even seen Nemesis scrape Ret Warder builds, which are nearly impossible to make NOT tanky as hell. So maybe, just maybe…Disagreement is allowed here.

Why is it everyone assumes that when I disagree with them, or do something in a way they wouldn’t have, that I am somehow unware of a “better” way or the “right” opinion? Disagreement can easily be based on the same data you’ve got, and still be there. I have no idea why this is a shock to some people.

Here is how I know Sorcerer is better then Battlemage for AAR (a known fact)
Make a battlemage using AAR and I promise you that a well made Sorcerer will do alot more damage and be just as tanky if not more so then Battlemage.

[Nssheepster]

Here is how I know Sorcerer is better then Battlemage for AAR (a known fact)
Make a battlemage using AAR and I promise you that a well made Sorcerer will do alot more damage and be just as tanky if not more so then Battlemage.

There’s a link in my signature now. I suggest you use it.

[Elementoid]

Wow. So much vehement disagreement.

I still disagree on Demo, because the big points I’m seeing are:
1- You need more DPS, in various forms. I don’t think you do. If you can kill Ultimate Logh, that’s the core game, and I call that enough DPS. More is nice, but that’s what I see as the bare minimum build viability.

If your standard for damage is that low, then I don’t see the point of doing any specific build, such as AAR. Here’s what you should do with your expectations (or the lack thereof): there is a great player made website called Grim Calc, and there is a great function on the website called “Lucky?” What it does is that it makes a random class combination with random skill points distribution. If you do it, I think you’ll find that just about every roll you can get fits to your minimum “requirement” (most of the random builds will probably be even better than your configuration).

2- Flashbang is great! It is, I agree…AFTER you hit someone with it. Until then, it’s nothing. And OFC, the defenses it provides are, IMO, strictly worse than say, just getting Military Conditioning. And since I don’t agree you need more DPS, the only value I’d be judging on in this context would be defenses, so…Shrug.

It’s not about a single skill from Demolitionist and more about the cumulation of all the synergizing skills. Yes, you can argue Military Conditioning is better than flashbang by itself, but you are taking Soldier for 1 or 2 skills while you will get so much more off of Demolitionist.

2- Blast Shield is great for defenses! I disagree. Vastly. It works AFTER your health gets dinged, to give some resists that you should already have, some max resists you likely don’t really need, and OFC some generic damage absorbtion and some chance to avoid projectiles. At 12/12 rank, Blast Shield is basically a better Turtle…And we already have Turtle. Just get Turtle, and save all the points you threw in just to get all the way to Blast Shield. If you are going that deep into Demo for something else, then it’s nice to have as well as your other defenses. Going that deep into Demo just for it? Eh.

Although Blast Shield was nerfed, it’s still better than you think. First of all, it’s +5% max to ALL resistances, which means that incoming damage to you will get reduced by 25% assuming you have the normal 80% cap. Second, Blast Shield reduces the damage of EACH and ALL incoming attacks during its up time, which, at 12/12, is about 30% of the time, compared to Turtle, which is just a flat 2700 damage. In a normal environment, Blast Shield is much much more effective than Turtle Shell since it takes just 4 hits above 800 to absorb more. Using Turtle at all is a very questionable choice, and rightfully so. Finally, yes, it works after your health drops below 60%, but that still doesn’t make Blast Shield worse than Turtle in its actual effectiveness, or bad for defenses.

You can argue that the entirety of my speech is opinion based, but these “opinions” are so widely accepted and proven that it is as true as any fact can be.

Keep in mind, before your replies get snarkier: Disagreement is allowed. These are opinions, NOT facts. Do not state your opinions as if they ARE facts, or it’s going to come across snarky and conceited. You’re welcome to play AAR any way you like, play the game any way you like, and define viability however you please. You’re not welcome to act like that is the only way to do so, or like I am “wrong” for not seeing things exactly your way. Open discourse is how clarity is found. Nobody can think of everything, that’s why you talk to people.

Of course disagreement is allowed, and yes, people have different opinions. But if your goal is just to be able to complete the mandatory, core game content without any consideration for the real end game, such as Nemeses or Crucible, then it is very safe to say that it will be too low and narrow for a good range of players. I am not telling you how to play your AAR build, nor do I care; what I am arguing against is you giving advice or critique that only holds true for such a limited range.

I can see you are particularly annoyed because you think all that is said here are subjective and biased opinions. Well, you are gravely mistaken: the idea of Sorcerer for AAR vs Battlemage or Druid has evolved from being an opinion to a theory because of how many experimentation there have been regarding this issue, and from comparing the effectiveness of the build overall in Crucible or main campaign, it is very safe to say that Sorcerer is exponentially better than the other two. Also, this is a discussion about a game, not a discussion about some infinitely complex mechanic, so yes, it is actually possible one thing usually will be strictly better than the other.

You talk about open discourse, yet you are so clearly unprepared; you talk about clarity, yet your view is so restraining; you talk about “that’s why you talk to people”, yet you are so unwilling to listen to the advice given by so many of us.

[sfbistimg]

There’s a link in my signature now. I suggest you use it.

If a build does more damage and is just as tanky then another build…

I guess you’re right the build with less damage is clearly the better build.

I told you how to prove sorcerer is better, but clearly you aren’t able to put your opinion to the test.

[Nssheepster]

–

Advice implies that you are correct, and have the ONLY right answer. There are MULTIPLE right answers in this game. I am most certainly not giving advice or critique. I asked the OP why he chose a specific class, as it didn’t seem to offer something he needed. After that, people began dissecting my opinion and trying to claim that Demo was the best, and that that was a fact. That’s what led to our current position.

I don’t give advice or critique. You know why? Because I don’t have a single right answer, or even all the right answers, and I don’t see any need to pretend that I do. All I have are opinions.

You claim “it’s a game, so there is one thing better than the other”…At what? In many games, this is simple. In this game? So many things to be better at. Is, for example, Demo better at Projectile Avoidance than Soldier? Yes. Soldier doesn’t offer that, Blast Shield does. Is Demo better than Soldier on Health? Not if you take Military Conditioning. What “better” are you looking for? It’s a similar issue to “best”…There are a lot of things to be better at, and you’re not defining which specific thing you think Demo is better at in this build.

Theories are still not facts. They’re generally agreed upon opinions, basically. Big Bang Theory…Not a fact, just our collective best guess with what data we have, and not universally agreed on anyways.

I could easily agree that Nemesis are a good End Game, and indeed all my builds can so far complete them…Yet Crucible is a DLC, so I can never, in my opinion, call that “end game” as it’s not actually part OF the game, it’s an add on. But that IS my opinion, and many disagree.

Technically, you are taking Demolitionist for 4 skills. Vindictive Flame, Flame Touched, Flashbang, and Blast Shield. Vindictive Flame, as far as I can tell, is just for the total speed, so it’s hard to really argue that’s needed. In Soldier, you could, by comparison, get Military Conditioning, Field Command, and Fighting Spirit, for example. Or skip Spirit and go out further to grab Scars of Battle. All useful things that AAR could benefit from, and would shore up things he’s lacking. Scars specifically would shore up the Stun he mentions he has a problem with, and perhaps free up a component/augment for something else, perhaps even something damaging. Soldier is far from useless here, and offers its own synergies.

At the end of the day, all I did was ask the OP a query, and then defend my opinion from people acting like their opinion was a fact, and my not seeing that made me a fool somehow. If there’s any moral high ground to be have in an internet argument…I’m afraid it doesn’t seem to be yours, in this one.

[Nssheepster]

If a build does more damage and is just as tanky then another build…

I guess you’re right the build with less damage is clearly the better build.

I told you how to prove sorcerer is better, but clearly you aren’t able to put your opinion to the test.

More damage of what kind? At what speed? In what area? Tanky how? In Health? Health regen maybe? Resistances? Which resistance?

Maybe you should reread that link I mentioned.

[sfbistimg]

More damage of what kind? At what speed? In what area? Tanky how? In Health? Health regen maybe? Resistances? Which resistance?

Maybe you should reread that link I mentioned.

Maybe you should learn what more damage and just as tanky mean.

Sorcerer will kill faster and have the same if not better survivability

After this I’m done because I told you to put your opinions to the test, but clearly you fear your opinions are inferior to the fact that sorcerer is just all around better for AAR

[Nssheepster]

Maybe you should learn what more damage and just as tanky mean.

Sorcerer will kill faster and have the same if not better survivability

After this I’m done because I told you to put your opinions to the test, but clearly you fear your opinions are inferior to the fact that sorcerer is just all around better for AAR

Tanky HOW? You continue to assume everyone uses the same meaning of your terms, regardless of being told that that is not the case. You insist you have the only answer, and yet refuse to actually support that properly. I’m visibly not the one at fault here.

[Sopranos]

If you’re using Arcane Shard, you’re focusing Aether more than fire, right? So why Demolitionist then? You’re getting Flash bang, some total speed, and Flame Touched. Total Speed is nice, but not really needed. Flash bang, the same, but more useful after you’ve put on Shard, for the DA reduction. Flame Touched… eh? Doesn’t seem worth the class choice just for that TBH. It seems like picking a defensive class would net you better results overall. It’s AAR after all, it’s not hurting for damage no matter what you do with it.

Well i know im super late responding to this, as the previous 2 pages was a back and forth argument between you and a few others lol, but i will offer my perspective as to why demo is optimally the best second class.

demo offers better synergies than any other class. flame touched offers a great oa amount, and +fire, which out build utilizes immensely. vindictive flame offers health regen, fire damage and total speed, which we greatly welcome. flash bang grants us the ability to nuke enemies da and cause fumbling with searing light. to top it off, blast shield is a god send defensive skill that greatly ensures our survivability when were under heavy fire. solider does have some useful skills, but in the end, demo provides a more beneficial boost to our overall dps and survivability. also, more dps isnt an unwelcomed addition. i know in my original post i sarcastically joked that i didnt need more dps. thats false, everyone could benefit from more dps lol.

Are you able to swap out Runestone for Leathery Hide without lowering resists too much?

technically yes i can. cold resis would drop from 83 to 82 and aether would drop from 84 to 74

as to pointing out my low oa, i will toy around with different augments, components and gear load outs to see if i can bump it up to a more optimal level.

[JoV]

…
1- You need more DPS, in various forms. I don’t think you do. If you can kill Ultimate Logh, that’s the core game, and I call that enough DPS…

This pretty much summarizes the difference between you and others on the forum. Some people just have higher standards.
On a side note, please regard this as a friendly advice, make some build using demo mastery to actually get a feeling what blast shield does, comparing it to turtle shell is like comparing feather vest with kevlar vest and saying they are doing almost the same job in stooping bullets just because they are same size.

To OP, bit strange skill point distribution for standard AAR sorcerer build, to low on OA/DA, armor, and especially armor adsorption. For more complete picture next time consider adding devotion to grim calc.
But it was nice reading, keep up the good work