[1.1.4.2] Pure Vitality Oblivion Spamlord/RE leechtank Oppressor. Crucible 5:54. SR+

Grim Dawn Classes, Skills and Builds
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70

On such uncertain things, I think the pilot would know best. So if you feel it’s better, it probably is.

There are also 2 blue pants with + points to RE - https://www.grimtools.com/calc/RZRO45PN, but they have shite stats.

As for the dummy kills, I’m not sure what korsar does, but I personally go at it back2back. I even continue to attack it during that ‘invulnerable’ stage. I think it’s a more reliable imitation of what actually happens in the crucible.

As for rebuke…I don’t think it’s great unless you’re having issues with reflect.

71

Man, killing dummies takes forever on a Spectral Wrath build :expressionless:

Just did a very quick test of Full Wendigo (24secs) vs. Jackal (25 secs) devo before calling it off for today.

Not sure if the 1sec difference is just variance or if the proc+the %vit dmg actually outvalue the CS…

Maybe I’ll just have to go for the full 200% CS setup to get clearer results tomorrow.

72

Alright @mad_lee @sir_spanksalot, I did a little more dummy killing.

My results:

  • HoS (196% CS): ~24 secs.
  • PoT (184% CS): ~25,34 secs.
  • PoT (197% CS): ~27,6 secs (probably due to a loss of ~200 OA; +to RE items suck).

So I guess my/our logical fallacy was to assume that the deciding factor would be CS, whilst it was the harmful conversion of PoT all along (uncertainties about the conversion process with %ele>vit as part of the equation probably didn’t help with that).

Does anyone have an idea how the whole conversion process actually goes down, now? :see_no_evil:

Because I also tested HoS+Darkflame Chestguard which did give me another ~350 vit dmg according to the tooltip…

Edit: dummy kill time didn’t really change with Darkflame btw, probably because of OA & chaos>vit still being relevant

73

Your tooltip DID show acid damage in your PoT3 version, so it was definitely screwing with your conversions.

Korsar made a super useful image detailing the order of conversion, but it got lost when things got ported over to the new forum.

Conversion on Equipment and Buffs > Equipment, Auras and Passives...what does it actually mean?

This was the post where the vets clarified a lot of my questions. Might be useful.

EDIT: found the image - https://images.vfl.ru/ii/1525283771/ededce19/21590161.png

2nd edit: As a frame of reference, this is the order of conversion as listed by the official game site -

The order of events for Conversion is as follows: Base Skill > Skill Modifiers > Conversion on the Skill or Transmuter > Conversion on Equipment and Buffs > Equipment, Auras and Passives

74

In other words, both PoT3 and your fire/vit conversion from your equipment is occuring at the same ‘level’ in the order of operations for conversion.

So my initial guess was right - you’re forcing your total vit damage to enter a weighted pool very much so similar to how WPS works.

^Not being rude, but do you need me to clarify this?

75

With Skill Mods + transmuter conversion having equal authority, right?

Thank you! That is very good info :slight_smile:

Possibly. And I would never think of you as being rude or condescending – I love your guides & stuff!

[Warning: humongous essay ahead :sweat_smile:]

My remaining issue: due to how my tooltip dmg behaves when I equip Darkflame Chestguard, the whole Ele>X conversion thing is still a bit unclear even with your above info, right?

Because technically I have 100%+ fire>vit conversion with belt+offhand (+good rolls) if ele>X & fire>X conversion would just combine that way. Which, according to multiple sources, e.g. mad_lee further up in this thread, malawiglenn’s guide on game mechanics and my tooltip, they apparently do not (even though they both classify as ‘Conversion on Equipment and Buffs’ as stated in your ‘order of events’-line.

Quote from

malawiglenn’s answer to my question of ‘how does it work, then?’ seems to be this:

So what I thought would happen in this case is that first, ~50% of my fire dmg would be converted to vit via the belt and then the remaining 50% fire would be treated as a virtual 100% again – at least from the perspective of the fire>vit conversion on my offhand – leaving me with a total of ~75% fire dealt as vit (0.5 + 0.5 x 0.5).

Furthermore, if this is taken to be correct, the only thing the fire>acid conversion on PoT had to compete with would be the aforementioned virtual 100% fire remaining after ele>vit conversion (thus basically turning PoT’s conversion into a mere ~25% fire>acid, leaving us basically without any real harm to overall dmg.

Which is, based on my recent testing, clearly wrong.

So my findings of

  1. fire>acid conversion on PoT hurts dmg here and
  2. +35% fire>vit from Darkflame Chestguard still benefits us anyways

are what really boggle my mind atm…

And thus my question still remains: how does it really work, then?

76

I believe that the order of item equipping makes a difference when you have both a single type and elemental-> conversion. Call it a feature. It’s rarely an issue, but might be in your case. Irrc the first equipped = first conversion.

And yes, elemental and individual is multiplicative, not additive.

PoT is global, so it would go at the same step as any equipment globals.

77

So you’re saying that belt+offhand amount to ~75% conversion which then, kind of as one block, competes with PoT in a weighted contest?

78

yes. Note elemental has its own step at each level and what I was saying is that order can be determined by item equip in certain cases.

^this is why elemental ends up as multiplicative.

79

Ok. I believe the best explanations are the ones kids can understand, so…that’s my preface for what I’m about to write.

Forget percentages for a second. Think of them as…marbles.

50% fire/vit conversion = 50 fire marbles --> Vit marbles.

So if I have 100 fire marbles being converted to vit, and 100 fire marbles being converted to acid, I must have a total of 200 fire marbles to begin with.

Out of my original 200 fire marbles, I’ll therefore end up with 100 fire, and 100 acid.

Returning back to percentages, and since 100/200 = 50%, having these 2 conversion values interplay will ultimately result in…
i. 50% fire --> vit conversion
ii. 50% fire --> acid conversion

Regarding elemental conversion…elemental conversion works kinda strangely, and is actually a hidden operator in the order of conversions.

I can’t think of a way to explain this away using marbles, so I’ll just give it to you raw.

Assume that I have:

  • 100 fire damage
  • 50% ele --> vit conversion (call this “a”)
  • 50% fire --> vit conversion (call this “b”)

Step A will first convert 50% of my 100 fire damage to vit. So I’ll have 50 fire, and 50 vit.
Step B will then occur separately and independently to step A. This means that 50% of my remaining 50 fire damage gets converted to vit.

Ultimately, this translates to a net total of 75 fire damage, and 25 vit.

80

All single type conversions of the same step are weighted. Elemental has its own step in there. So your basics are correct.

Re: the feature. Crate may have fixed this by now (it was reported a few times). But if not, then if you equip the single conversion items first, then you should see that result iirc. Otherwise elemental will convert some first, then the singles will divide the rest of the fire.

81

Putting it altogether, we can work through your build as an example.

Assume again that you have 100 fire damage.

  • Belt: 50% ele --> vit
  • Offhand: 60% fire --> vit (I’m assuming yours is BiS’d rolled)
  • PoT3: Fuck it, let’s assume 50% fire --> acid

So right off the bat…

  1. Ele conversion occurs first. Boom - 50 vit damage and 50 fire damage.
  2. Enter the marbles - 50 + 60 = 110 < – this is your total weighted pool, which means…
    2a. 50 / 110 = 45.5% of your fire damage gets converted to acid
    2b. 60 / 110 = 54.5% of your fire damage gets converted to vit

As you can see, this results in a loss of 5.5% fire/vit conversion.

EDIT: What this goes to show is that raw %vit damage is responsible for most of your DPS. Not casting speed, not cool down.

While I’m sure there’s an optimal balance between these 3 things, what your testing has demonstrated is that you’ve hit the point where you just need to focus on sheer firepower.

82

This is also why that fire/vit chest piece you had originally increases your DPS.

TBH, you might be better off sticking to that, and using that lunal’valgoth necro belt for chaos/vit conversion.

EDIT: Am I even making sense, or is my marble analogy an indicator of me having lost my…marbles

Buh-dum-tsss

^To clarify…

45.5% of your remaining 50 fire damage gets converted to acid
54.5% of your remaining 50 fire damage gets converted to vitality.

83

So in this equation, step A & B don’t just occur separately, but also consecutively, right?

It’s actually the other way around! ‘desparately tries to get any amount of authority back’ :raised_hands:

And because it’s the other way around – and 54% fire>vit (off-hand)+46%fire>acid (PoT) don’t actually supercede 100%, this still feels kinda wrong, doesn’t it?

5.5% dmg loss sounds way too little, anyways (fire dmg is really just added to RE via skill mods = is lower than base dmg; and I lost at least 10% with PoT according to my tooltip).

Doesn’t hammys scenario of ele+fire>vit competing with fire>acid as one single block sound more likely, here? In that case I should lose about 15% fire>vit, right? (since the ratio of vit/X dmg, as converted from fire, would go from 7.5/2.5 to 6/4)

I might just be stupid here, though. I have kind of a history with that when math is involved :sweat_smile:

@hammyhamster1 btw., tooltip values don’t change for me, no matter in which order I equip belt (58% conversion) & off-hand (52%)… maybe they fixed it?

This is definitely true, however; as shown by Darkflame setup

84

Before we continue down the rabbit hole of conversions, can I trouble you to lay out all your conversion values, and their respective sources in a list?

85

Sure thing :stuck_out_tongue:

  • Belt: 58% ele>vit
  • Off-Hand: 52% fire>vit
  • PoT: 46% fire>acid
86

One last thing, and perhaps I should have included this in my above reply…but what do you mean by:

EDIT: Nevermind, I just figured it out. Uh…yeah. I believe hammyhamster is right. IIRC, he (or she) was the one who told me about the weird ‘conversions are affected by the items you equip first’

An easy way to test this is to unequip your offhand + belt, turn on pot3, and then see if the order in which you equip them screws with your damage values.

^I’m kinda curious about this, too.

87

I meant that – if you want to work with round numbers – the belt is the one with 60% conversion, whilst the off-hand is the one with 50%; therefore the latter would, in fact, even out to 100% total with PoT, and not to 110% as in your post (which only then should ensue a weighted contest, right?).

Sorry for being unclear :see_no_evil:

88

Hmm…let me think about this while I crap. The toilet is where I do some of my best thinking. :wink:

89

It doesn’t. :thinking:

Maybe it’s a source-of-conversion kind of thing instead – since the 7j5% are equipment-based & the other 50% come from a skill? That sounds weird, though…

It should all just be global conversion, right?

:stuck_out_tongue: