Correct me if I’m wrong, but don’t these two snippets suggest different orders of applying minus resists? If ‘n Reduced’ and ‘-n%’ are flat reductions, then why is ‘n% Reduced’, a percent reduction, applied in between those two in your ordering in the first quote?
Hey guys,
So I think I may have stumbled upon some previously unknown knowledge regarding how piercing on weapons is calculated.
I recently posted a bug about how a weapon with 60% more dps was lowering the dps of Force Wave.
http://grimdawn.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31104
According to the developer post, the piercing on the weapon is apparently lowering the dps of Force Wave due to the fact that Rending Force (the modifier) only applies to physical damage.
We already know that piercing on weapon is applied to ALL physical damage on a skill (ie the flat physical on Force Wave).
HOWEVER, according to the combat wiki, modifiers are applied in this order: Base Skill > Skill Modifiers > Conversion on the Skill or Transmuter > Conversion on Equipment > Equipment, Auras and Passives.
Normally all skill modifiers are applied first to the skill, but in this case, it appears that the conversion to piercing is applied BEFORE the skill modifier, leading to this effect.
I guess this leads to the conclusion that any skill with a phys% modifier will be worse with a piercing weapon than with a weapon with 0% pierce.
tl;dr piercing on weapons is applied BEFORE skill modifiers (but after base skill flat damage?)
Hi guys.
Probably this has been described somewhere, but it’s hard to search for the right question and answer. So I would like to have a clear answer to this one thing I have been wondering.
Simply put: Do +% Damage bonuses from skill modifiers for just that one skill add multiplicatively or additively with other, universal +% Damage bonuses, like ones you get from gear?
For me it would make sense to have those two bonuses added multiplicatively, since they are counted in different “rounds”. Like in the Grim Dawn Game guide it says:
The order of events for Conversion is as follows: Base Skill > Skill Modifiers > Conversion on the Skill or Transmuter > Conversion on Equipment > Equipment, Auras and Passives
So skill modifiers are counted first and much later the universal bonuses from equipment are added in.
For example: Let’s take Occultist’s Bloody Pox skill line: Bloody Pox + Wasting + Black Death
You get some flat Vitality damage on your Bloody Pox from Wasting, and +% Vitality Damage from Black Death. So I understand that this +% Vitality Damage only applies on the Vitality damage caused by Bloody Pox(Wasting) and no other spell. Then if you have some +% Vitality Damage on your gear as well, do the +% Vitality Damage from your gear add multiplicatively or additively with the +% Vitality Damage from Black Death for your Bloody Pox’s Vitality damage?
Let’s bring in the numbers: You get flat 10 Vitality Damage from Wasting to your Bloody Pox.
You get +15% Vitality Damage from Black Death to your Bloody Pox.
You get +100% Vitality Damage from your gear universally.
You don’t get any other spell/vitality damage bonuses from anywhere.
Which one is correct:
A) Your bloody pox does 101.152 = 23 Vitality damage
B) Your bloody pox does 10*(1+0.15+1) = 21.5 Vitality damage
With A) the Black death could be useful for Vitality Bloody Pox users, but with B) Black death is negligible and does not justify it’s position that high up in the tree. Well, maybe for poison dealers.
Bonus question: When does the bonus from Spirit come in and is that also multiplicative or additive?
every single source of +% type damage is additive
[QUOTE=Raiyaz;251715]
Charges (Cadence)
There is reason to believe that B27 changed information in this section. This information may be out of date.
The differing WPS skills add different charges to skills like Cadence. Here are the skills you can get from Nightblade and Soldier.
[ul][li]Melee DW:[list][*]MA hits with both weapons, only gives one charge to Cadence.[/li]
[li]ZT hits with one weapon, only gives one charge to Cadence.[/li]
[li]BS hits with both weapons, gives two charges to Cadence.[/li]
[li]AQC hits with both weapons, gives three charges to Cadence.[/li]
[li]WD hits with both weapons, gives one charge to Cadence. (I could be wrong here).[/ul][/li]
[li]Range DW:[ul][/li]
[li]MA hits with one weapon, only gives one charge to Cadence.[/li]
[li]ZT hits with one weapon, only gives one charge to Cadence.[/ul][/list][/li]
WPS Works with These Skills:
[ul][li]Fire Strike - Demolitionist[/li]
[li]Savagery - Shaman[/li]
[li]Troll Rage - Mistborn Talisman (Relic)[/li]
[li]Beronath’s Fury - Shard of Beronath (Melee Weapon Materia) (Not currently available)[/ul][/li]
Conclusion:
Most of this information comes from a
(http://www.grimdawn.com/forums/showthread.php?p=124335#post124335) from medierra where he describes a little bit of the system. So the credit goes to him.
Feel free to correct misinformation, suggest additions, or ask questions!
I can’t understand how exactly Cadence works with proc skills.
QUestion #1. Does Cadence replace the proc skills or it overrides them? Some ppl at this forum say that it doesn’t override, instead the proc skill’s damage is increased by cadence modifiers when a cadence is charged… Is it so? FOr example: I have ACC levelled to 100% weapon damage and Cadence to 150%. Does it mean that if ACC procs when the Cadence is charged, then 1 of it’s hits will do 1*1.5=1.5 base damage? Or all three hits? Or none of them, because when Cadence is charged, no proc skill can occur and Cadence itself is used?
Q#2. If Cadence empowers proc skills instead of overriding them, does this work for all proc skills (incluing Execution)??
Q#3. Fighting Form add Cadence some AOE (+1 target actally, and +2 at max skill point investement).
So if Cadence doesn’t override proc skills and instead empowers them, do procs lika ACC and Execution hit 2-3 targets??
Can devotion procs apply reduced resistances by n and -n% to ennemy resistance?
If so, when using a low WeaponDmg% skill like Phantasmal Blades, is it optimal to bind an High weaponDmg Devotion proc (like maul or any other) to apply your res redux effects on Ultimate ?
- Is the -% Weapon Damage attribute on transmuters such as Frenetic Throw and Thunderous Strike additive or multiplicative with the %Weapon Damage from the base skill?
(e.g. Is Primal Strike 16/16 reduced to 200 - 50 or 200 * .5 by Thunderous Strike?)
If multiplicative, does it also apply to modifiers on the skill and in what order?
(e.g. is Torrent damage reduced by Thunderous Strike?)
- Is there a comprehensive list of:
a) What effects other than flat damage are carried as part of a weapon attack and applied by %WD skills?
b) How those effects are scaled as a percentage of weapon damage?
(e.g. 15% Chance of 80 Cold Damage from Alkamos’ Agony; is the percent chance or the damage scaled with weapon damage?)
c) Which of these effects, if any, scale above 100% of base value on skills with large weapon damage components?
d) Which of these effects, if any, are further modified by multiplicative attributes such as %Total Damage or +% Damage vs Type?
-
Additive. Only applies to the base skill.
-
Not really. Anything your basic attack does is modified by % Weapon Damage, though some effects are capped at 100% efficiency, like lifesteal (which is BULLSHIT) and % Health Reduction.
-
d. All damage is modified by % Total Damage and its respective % [type] Damage.
if it used as the main attack Primal Strike, with the nodule which removed the CD. activated pasive the feral hunger? or it is not considered primary attack? I think it is not activated me.
sorry for my English. 
I’m really inquiring around non damage effects here. Would -75% Total Damage or +25% Damage vs Chthonian modify such effects as:
8% Attack Damage Converted to Health (independently from modifying the actual damage dealt by the attack)
15 Reduced target’s Resistance For 5 Seconds
Stun target for 1.5 seconds
13-33% Energy Burn
And for good measure:
Are multiplicative modifiers of this sort additive with each other?
Does it mean that my Savagery levelled to 150% weapon damage boosts Stormcaller Pact’s 33% chance to 33*1.5=49.5?
a “nodule” which removes CD directly says that it can NOT trigger Feral Hunger.
ok, thanks
would like an answer to my skipped question if anyone know pls
and for mine too, please
Where have all the knowledgeable guys gone T_T
%weapon damage never modifies the chance of something happening
yes, celestial powers with %weapon damage components apply any reduced resistance on your gear at a coefficient equal to the %weapon damage being used
whether or not it’s worth using a celestial power solely to apply it depends on the build and how much resistance reduction you have on your gear. if you have double mark of dreeg for 30 reduced resistance, then maul at max rank will apply 23 reduced resistance vs PB applying 8 reduced resistance. while that’s an ok damage boost it also takes up 5 devotion points.
it also requires that you be in melee range, and since you’ll probably be killing most heroes and regular mobs before they reach melee range, it’s only really useful vs bosses, and vs bosses you may as well just use the plaguebearer’s weapon swap technique and melee them every 5 seconds for much more potent resistance reduction.
that said, i’ve never played a PB character so don’t take my advice as gospel. if you find yourself having to shotgun a lot of heroes at melee range then it might work for you.
ty for answer, but why then are there devotion skills like Acid spray (manticore skill) which has -60% resistances but 0% weapon damage? does it means it does not apply the -60% cause theres 0% then?
i don’t completely understand your question. %weapon damage doesn’t directly have anything to do with resistance reduction, only flat resistance reduction from gear.
manticore’s resistance reduction is the effect of the celestial power. it applies its effects in full regardless of whether or not you have resistance reduction on your gear, or whether you’re hitting with a skill with %weapon damage.
manticore’s resistance reduction is not flat, but percentage, meaning it will take the target’s current resistance and reduce it by 60%. if an enemy has 0 resistance to an damage type, and you have no other method of resistance reduction applied to it, then manticore won’t do anything. manticore is good if the enemy has a huge amount of default resistance, as 60% of their current resistance will go a long way. the lower their resistance (assuming it’s above 0) the less effective manticore is. however, if you reduce an enemy’s resistance below 0 through other means, then manticore will multiply their reduced resistance by 1.6x, meaning it’s a good way to take a large amount of other resistance reduction even further.
if, for example, you use mark of dreeg on your weapon and focus and have manticore applied to phantasmal blades, and the enemy starts with 0 resistance, then PB will reduce their resistance to -8, which manticore will then modify by 1.6x, leaving the enemy with -13 resistance.
A Special Note: Debuffs given through Weapon Damage % will be effected by it, up to 100%. So if you use Phantasmal Blades (30% Weapon Damage) with the “18 Reduced Target’s Resistance for 5 Seconds” from PlagueBearer’s prefix, it will only do 30%*18=6 Reduced Target’s Resistances for 5 Seconds. However, if you do it with, say, Shadow Strike (which gives 330% Weapon Damage at 16/16), it will only do 18 Reduced Target’s Resistance, not of 59.4.
From reading that I understood that ANY debuff is nerfed by weapon% , not just flat -resistance, but the three possible kinds. Same for any other debuffs. For instance if you have confuse ennemy for 1.5second, then with PB in my understanding it would be only 0.25*1.5s= 0.375seconds confusion.
He just took an example where -18 resistance becomes 4.5 cause there is not affix on gear that do the other two kinds of resistance reduction, but that doesn’t mean weapdmg% doesn’t affect it, does it?
Lastly, what about the component skill from Venom-tipped ammo, it says -30res but also 12%weapondmg, is it nerfed to crappy 30*0.12? or do you get full -30 from it?