Avatar of Order/Spectral Warshield please buff

Please give back some retal to attack to drain essence on Avatar of Order and Spectral Warshield.

The imemization required to make the build work was already hyper-unrealistic in terms of affix rolls on MI’s, and now the build is super slow too.

Yes it uses a shield, yes DE gives super lifesteal, but the build is vulnerable to CC/getting bursted down instantly. Even if it did double the dmg it currently does it would still be slow compared to a lot of other builds out there.

I made a retaliation DE after nerf and to me it’s insane. I’d rather ask for nerfing it, seriously. I can facetank anything by just holing DE, because I leech like 20k damage per tick (reduce it by bosses resist).

So I’d say:

  • Remove the 18% additional leech from skill modifers and add a maximum of 6% additional RDATA
  • Don’t change anything at all and just let players actually think about making an effective rather than brain dead build

Ravager took me like 2 - 3 minutes to kill, Lokarr about 10 - 20, didn’t try Callagadra yet, SR 70 is easy as fuck unless you get Grava, because then you just have to facetank till he casts Nullify and then run away, but aside of the nullify, you LITERALLY sit there and facetank 2 nemesis at once without any issues. Grava reduces healing by 85% (life leech resist, I mean) and I can facetank HIM and Kuba, healing 100% or even more of the damage both of them deal at once. I think no other build can just sit there in one place hitting their targets and not have to worry about anything at all, except for Grava’s nullify, which doesn’t even oneshots me.

Hmm. That would be interesting. What if it nerfed the heck out of the DE’s lifesteal but improved the dmg? I dunno. Maybe my build is outdated. Can I see yours?

I don’t think posting my build would prove anything. It’s built tanky. You’ll get 4k armor and about 40% physical resist and you’re set to facetank either most of the stuff or everything. Oppressor is what I’d recommend and going physical. Heck, I even think there’s much space for improvement for my DE build.

Retaliation was never meant to be built squishy, and you should not focus on casting speed or other bullshit - it’s a tanky variant of retaliation DPS.

Highest damage:

Best achievement was killing SR 68 Benn’Jahr in 2 seconds from full HP (with 70% HP boost mutator).

The mere fact you can go shield while playing DE is already hot as fuck. It just implies further you should play tanky and hitting up to 13 targets at once is insane too. You can clear SR (pre boss) rooms in seconds (my record was 15 seconds).

come on adam, seriously? you asking that ?

Hey, my retal DE build is slow now.

I guess I need to update to: https://grimdawn.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82921 and see how it goes.

let it go man, how come you guys play 1 build in gd when i came up with 10 ideas per day :smiley:

and buffing retal is pointless, even their current state is disgustingly strong imo…

i dont think this broken thing needs a buff. i cant call this even a build tbh , its like OSFrog meme of Crate… my finest creation and nothing wrong here perfectly balanced… some dota memes

Okay so, my thing about DE is that the rare affixes are actually too strong in comparison to everything else now, because everything else got nerfed, but none of the affixes did. To the point where if you don’t have double retal affixes on shield (Overlord’s of Thorns works), your damage is a lot weaker. I recall the of Thorns suffix giving me over 20% more damage vs the shit suffix i have now.

It’s a little annoying, because your only prefix is basically Overlord’s. That said, if I had a double retal affix shield, the build would still be very very very strong. Before the patch it was getting close to sub 5-min crucible times with only 2 greens. I did multiple 5:20s ON HARDCORE with Overlord’s of the Eagle + non-crafted Thunderstruck of Celerity gloves, so I’m certain optimal affixes could have pushed sub 5 minutes. Yes we have something clearing sub 5 minutes, but it’s an absolute glass cannon without very good sustain (and I mean that with all due respect to john_smith and his canister bomb build – you need to pilot really well to live on that build – but compared to the sustain on retal DE… to put it simply, I was more threatened by the RR from anasteria potentially causing me to get 1 shot than anything else in crucible)

Okay after updating my spec, Retal DE is fine.

The current Phys Retal DE is not as WL, but it is a Super tank.
Clear SR 75 more safely than Lightning AAR. But honestly, this build is boring.
After the Amy nelf patch arrived, I immediately tested and made a request. But it was immediately rejected by Z.

Did you try it without overlord of thorns shield? Cause that’s the big question.

It’s still fine but takes a big hit in speed. Which is why I advocated for a buff because I have to high roll the crap out of my gear to make it go smooth. But given how safe it is maybe that’s the point? I still think the shield and amulet could use another 2% retal to attack each, and maybe tone down thorns affix and something else… to make the build less roll dependent.

That’s expected. I think the real complaint here is that DE retal is too boring now that it lost its speed. It doesn’t have the procs that AAR could afford. No devastation, no seals, no active gameplay. Just a 1 button push and that’s it. The safety isn’t in question since it has always been a safe build with all the lifesteal.

I don’t think it needs anymore buffs, since any more retal damage to attack and it would be back to broken tier. But I don’t think it needs a nerf too. Don’t make a boring build any more boring.

This one is a pretty hard sell.
Perhaps it having more realistic itemization would do the job

I said “Retal DE is dead” in your Retal DE thread before because I felt the same thing you wrote.
It’s a boring build that’s not worth doing. It’s dead.

I gave feedback right after the patch.

The number of targets will hit 13 in total.
Removes the target count compensation (+ 9) from the item and restores the RDatA.
If the RDatA is recovered, the amount of health recovery will increase, and at the same time AdCtH from Amy will need to be reduced or deleted.

Well, I proposed it and was turned down, so I don’t mind as it is.
If a boring build is intended, I just won’t play with it.
But if it’s going to be a more exciting and fun build than it is now, that’s great.

If I understood you correctly, you’re missing a HUGE point. If we lose additional targets from all skill modifiers, and get back the dumb 35% RDATA the skill will be as OP as before. The only thing you’re doing is reducing targets from 13 to 4, as Hungering Reach gives AoE.

The less AoE and the more damage is better, you’d think, but it doesn’t change anything. If you’re hitting 13 targets for 60k per tick and then get it to, e.g. 4 targets and 300k per tick, nothing changes except making this skill even more OP, as bosses will die way faster, you’ll be able to tank way more and you’ll be able to CLEAR FASTER, as the second you tick something for 300k, it dies and you get additional target (4 -> 3 (death) -> 4). On top of that you heal way better than Kuba does in 20 pools.

If everyone wants the “old DE” to come back, you can only dream. If you want to get at least some more damage with it, fine, but you have to choose before asking for that, as giving a little percentage of RDATA would need a bigger nerf than just removing targets (which doesn’t solve anything at all).

  • If you want the damage to be increased, the healing effect HAS TO go down drastically. Ticking for 60k already gives over 20k heals. Which is 2000 HP per tick vs. Ravager. This would need to go down from 35% ADCtH (current) to 10%, because the more you hit the more you leech.
  • You have to take into account that retaliation is not normal damage. If your DE ticks for 100k, your overall retaliation is 714,285 when something hits you (current patch). You can do the math yourself and you’d see that the more they increase the ratio the more damage in general you’ll deal.
    [li]With 200k base retaliation damage, assuming you can never crit, and 14% RDATA to DE, you tick for 28k - it’s bad, right? It’s not, because you heal 9800 HP per tick. That’s ~93,334 damage per second and 32,667 HP per second, assuming you have no casting speed (100% total casting speed).[/li]Now if they increase the RDATA by 6%, 20% total, the damage would be 133,334 and healing 46,667 per second. Oh, you did it again - you thought it’s shit but you forgot that every time something hits you you deal another 200k damage… 333,334 damage per second and 46,667 HP per second is insane.
    If the healing was only 10%, it would still be fucked up.

There’s absolutely no reason to buff retaliation DE and whoever thinks there is basically wants the game to be not fun for everyone but for themselves only. If you want to play retaliation DE and and deal massive damage, ask Crate to buff retaliation FoI, as it has the same RDATA as DE but doesn’t heal. I believe FoI could easily have about 20 - 25 RDATA.

Thank you for the detailed explanation.USER_NAME;)

You are right.
In order not to set Retal DE to OP, many changes are required.
Balance between base skills, item statistics, retaliation and RDatA etc.

You might want to add a new disadvantage, such as the one you wrote in John’s feedback thread.

I would of course be happy if DE changes well, and I do not mind if changes are not made. I just play with other toys that are not boring.

I thought Retal FoI was weak, so I haven’t tried it yet.
If it is indeed weak, it will want reinforcement.:smiley:

+1 to what USER_NAME_01 said

Agreed with what username said. Also the biggest weakness of the build is now single target damage , especially towards ranged exclusive enemies. Increasing single target damage removes that while AOE isn’t really a big problem due to DE mechanics where you don’t even need to turn around to switch targets.

I think one possible solution is to give this build some procs that will at least make it a bit flashy, like AAR so it won’t be boring. But Zantai already stated that this build performs as intended and I’m fine with leaving it as it is.