[Feeback] Classes

Grim Dawn Ideas and Feedback
1

This is a feedback thread pointing out certain classes being inferior to the other in some ways, I welcome people to correct my opinion on the matter.

Offense-

[spoiler]
Now offensively I feel all the classes are more or less good with the exception of a few donkey shit skills (looking at you Blade Trap and Upheaval). I won’t bother bringing them up as everything that needed to be said about them (including cursing them) has already been done

We do however have to classes - Nightblade and Arcanist that have no “debuff” skill to bind devotion effects to. For nightblade one could say we have Blade Spirit, but it’s too far in the mastery bar and therefore isn’t worth wasting skill points
This worse in Arcanist as it has no offensive aura unlike NB so even RR based skill mods can’t be attached to anything. Currently all RR skill mods for Arcanist get wasted on useless skill called OFF, NB doesn’t suffer from this as RR skill mods for it get attached to Veil of Shadows

Solution-

[spoiler]-For Nightblade I’m stumped, I can’t think of any solution besides moving Blade Spirit to below rank 32 of mastery bar. BS is decent for devotions and that’s all it’s good for, it doesn’t exactly justify it’s presence so deep in the mastery bar so therefor I don’t think this change is unreasonable

-For Arcanist, they should either re-do OFF and make it so that the debuff is independent of the freeze effect. Naturally existing RR values on it should be adjusted or removed.
OR
Replace Nullification template with Annihilation Orb, I might be wrong but devotion effects and skill mods can be attached to Orb but they can’t be attached to Nullification. This would make all those RR skill mods finally useful and would solve devotion binding problem of arcanist
[/spoiler][/spoiler]

Defense-

[spoiler]
But defensively there’s always been a gap between each mastery, this is more noticeable (imo) in Ashes of Malmouth

Defensive Layers of Each Mastery-

[spoiler]
Below are the defensive layers for each mastery, I won’t list the skill names but rather the type of defense

Also * is meant to indicate the bonus is reserved for a certain build type(s)
^ is meant to indicate uptime of said layer

1. Soldier-

Shield support*^
Circuit Breaker*
%Damage Absorption*^
% Armor Bonus^
Armor Absorption^
Flat DA^
% Physique Bonus^
% HP bonus^
HP regeneration^
Reduced Enemy Damage
Elemental Resistance^
Slow Resistance^
Reduced Stun Duration^
Reduced Freeze Duration^
Bleeding Resistance^

2. Shaman-

% Physical Resistance*
% Damage Absorption^
Flat DA*
% HP bonus^
Flat Armor^
HP regeneration^
Heal skill
Pierce Resistance^

3. Occultist-

%Physical Resistance
%Damage Absorption^
Enemy OA reduction
Enemy Damage Reduction (I think it’s limited Physical Damage, can’t remember)
HP Regen
Heal Skill
Chaos Resistance^
Poison & Acid Resistance

4. Necromancer-

Flat HP bonus^
Flat DA^
Attack Damage Converted to Health*^
Reduced Enemy Damage
%Damage Absorption
Vitality Resistance*

5. Inquisitor-

Flat Damage Absorption
Flat DA
% Physical Resistance^
Flat HP bonus
Heal Skill
Chaos Resistance
Aether Resistance
Elemental Resistance

6. Arcanist-

%Damage Absorption^
Invulnerability (can be classified under the above but this beat everything)
Cooldown Reduction^
Reduced Enemy Elemental Damage
“Debuff” skill (Nullification, don’t know what to call it:p)

7. Demolitionist-

Flat Damage Absorption
%Chance to Deflect
Enemy Fumble Chance
Enemy Impaired Aim Chance
Reduced Enemy Physical Damage
HP Regen^
Flat Armor^

8. Nightblade-

Invulnerability (at the cost of mobility)
Heal Skill
HP Regen
%Chance to Dodge
%Chance to Deflect
Enemy Fumble Chance
Flat Armor^
Flat DA
Pierce Resistance^
Reduced Freeze Duration^

**It should be noted Word of Renewal, Blood of Dreeg and Pneumatic Burst have an effective 100% uptime as they’re basically pseudo auras. [/spoiler]

Key to Defenses-

[spoiler]
With the release of AoM from an end game perspective permanent and stacking reliable defensive layers have become more important than ever.
Now defense wise there’s actually a balance that is to be achieved between two key things

-High HP pool, this is more important now due to HP reduction mobs being too common in expac
-Reliable defensive layers to protect said HP pool (emphasis on the word reliable), your HP pool is only as good as your ability to defend it

The balance between these two is the key. High HP pool with no reliable defensive measures is chicken shit, low HP pool with tons of defensive measures is donkey shit. [/spoiler]

Classification of Defensive Layers

[spoiler]
Defensive Layers can be classified into reliable and unreliable.

1. Unreliable-

-DA is very important but at the same time not reliable (yes). I say this because enemy debuffs can reduce your DA, and guess what? They can stack their debuffs (Crucible). Realistically not every build can reach God-Tier DA w/o compromising too much which is why I listed it under unreliable classification
-Then there’s HP regeneration, HP regenaration is actually a very strong defensive layer in my personal experience if you can stack it that is. Realistically not many builds will be able to stack high levels of HP regeneration
-Fumble/Impaired Aim, very potent indeed. But not every attack can be mitigated this way
-Flat Armor is basically useless w/o some hefty % Armor bonuses

2. Reliable-

Heal Skills
Damage Absorption
Physical Resistance
Capped Resistances, similar to DA reduction enemies have ridiculous RR as well but as Avatar of Dreeg pointed out it’s much easier to overcap resistances than DA

I just want to clarify that I don’t mean to say the defenses classified under “Unreliable” are weak. They’re very potent but they’re easy to bypass when compared to the ones classified under the “Reliable” label. [/spoiler]

Short note on comparison of defensive layers of all the masteries-


Looking at all the masteries we have 4 (Necro, Shaman, Soldier, Inquisitor) that give us impressively high HP bonuses and 3 (Shaman, Soldier, Inquisitor) out of these 4 have heal skills and other reliable defensive layers to protect this HP pool
Now, you’ll notice that neither Occultist nor Arcanist have a high HP pool. But, they have atleast one extremely reliable defensive layers to protect whatever measly HP they might/might not have
The reliability factor is what is lacking in the defensive layers of Nightblade and Demolitionist imo. I should add that compared Demolitionist, Nightblade has more reliable defenses but compared to the rest of the classes both are lacking a lot

NB and Demo defenses-

[spoiler]Nightblade Defenses-

-Blade Barrier immobilizing us is the reason why no one bothers investing beyond 1 point into it even though everyone is aware of the CD is reduced when you invest more into the skill
-%Chance to Dodge and Deflect, from a balancing perspective the value are fine so I won’t say they’re low even though they are
Basically against powerful shotgun attacks these values won’t do us much good, and also since not every attack is a projectile/melee attack this defensive layer isn’t as effective as flat HP or Damage Aborption
-Enemy fumble chance, the enemies you need it against would still kick your ass despite this(although I’d say this can be said for any defensive layer that isn’t MoE) and again many potent attacks aren’t melee
-Heal Skill, imo this is the most reliable defensive layer in the mastery

Demolitionist Defenses-

-Blast Shield is king, or was at some point. The deflect projectiles is potent against one specific boss (Mad Queen) and helpful against 2 others (Valdaran and Zantarin). The damage absorption has been nerfed quite a bit since the Sabo/Commando meta especially on ultimate ranks.
This is actually the strongest defensive layer in the Demolitionist Mastery but it isn’t reliable in every situation anymore since the nerfs. The hardest hitting bosses CAN still make your HP drop significantly during Blast Shield
-Reduced Enemy Physical Damage, good but Physical isn’t the only damage type in the game.
-Fumble/Impaired Aim, potent indeed but I’ve already explained above in Nightblade section why they’re inferior (imo) to defensive layers of other masteries[/spoiler]

Proposal-

Now this being a dual class game we don’t notice these weaknesses (imo) a lot.
But I still feel closing the gap between defensive reliability of classes w/o extreme gear dependency (skill mods :P) would help a lot with build diversity while not touching the meta of the game

Demolitionist-
-Add 1 second duration to Blast Shield OR % HP restored to Blast Shield
-Add flat HP bonus to Vindicative Flame or Flame Touched

Nightblade-
-Reduce the scaling of CD values from BB
-Add flat HP bonus to Anatomy of Murder or Shadow Dance modifier
-Increase % HP restored value on Pneumatic Burst[/spoiler]

In Closing-

The changes I suggest won’t damage the current meta in anyway, in fact it’d help more builds to catch up to the meta imo

I could be horribly mistaken with my assessment of this situation. I say this cause my Spider Sense is constantly tingling while typing this.
So feel free to correct me on the subject

2

I dasagree about Nightblade lack of defence. PPl underestimate Doge+High DA+fumble combination . It is possible to stack permanent 50% dodge 3600 effective DA and 30% fumble chanse without gimping offence too much, resulting in less that 20% chanse to recive a hit in melee. Yes, it is “luck” based defence and not as good as, said, 6K dmg block shield with 90%block chanse, but passable.
Curently the worst defencive mastery is Demo - outside of BS and 18% phyz dmg redaction he has nothing. No heal, no res, no life, no dmg absorbtion to keep him alive.
I suggest to turn Demon Fire, that no one pick, to dmg reduction modifier similar to Decay. That would help a lot purifiers/sabo/sorcs/elementalists.

3

Demolitionist-
-Add 1 second duration to Blast Shield OR % HP restored to Blast Shield It won’t happen because there are 2x items with + Duration to BS. One is for melee, others for casters and casters already had CDR.
-Add flat HP bonus to Vindicative Flame or Flame Touched Yeah maybe a good thing. just not on flame touched (is afraid of nerf)

  • To add something as a resolution to point 1. Some phys resistance to Temper. Something like 8% at lvl 12 (because it has armor too) With diminishing returns after 12. Like 10% at lvl 22(this is to balance chars like Markovian and WB who can easily get 21/22 temper and are already tanky)

Nightblade-
-Reduce the scaling of CD values from BB Yes please, or more mods. I secretly love this skill even if i have to invest to 12/12. since you are inactive while under it’s effect unlike mirror or BS then some innate reduced Cd would not be too OP.

-Add flat HP bonus to Anatomy of Murder or Shadow Dance modifier. Wishful thinking. i really doubt it will happen. Crate cares (the way i see it)about concept of skill. anatomy is offensive purely and shadow dance is sneaky type tanky, you evade/dodge not tank so it would be defeating it’s purpose to add HP.

Solution: “Slightly” increase mastery HP:)

-Increase % HP restored value on Pneumatic Burst It can have really low CD, even ~3.5 so i doubt they will do this

4

I am not underestimating NB’s defense, I did say it’s better than Demo. But I would say it’s inferior to other classes .
And, I went with roughly 70% Dodge and 52% deflect it was fun to say the least :rolleyes:. I did say it’s potent but as you said it’s still below Shield and flat damage absorption. Which is why I asked for a buff

Hmm, I don’t think I even remembered Demo Fire existing before you mentioned it :rolleyes:
Isn’t damage reduction on Demo Fire redundant though? Wouldn’t it be better to change High Potency’s “Reduced Physical damage” to “Reduced Damage”?
Even then we still could use a defensive bonus on an aura or a source of heal

5

Excellent thread. There is a lot to discuss on it, ofc…

What I would like to stress even more than you did in your excellent deconstruction is that the Nightblade and Demolitionist defensive layers scale somehow different than other types.

%Damage absorption skills, for example, are set in stone. Their percentage and power is ultimately dependent on how many points you assign to them.

The strength of dodge and deflect, on the other hand, is dependent on your DA. If you have 60% chance to be hit, for example, not only will you take less damage if a hit connects but the extra dodge/deflect makes it even less probable to be hit. As such, these defensive options become good only after you can reach 2800+ DA.

The problem is, in places such as the Crucible, the amount of -DA stacking is disproportionate compared to other debuffs. Sure, Anasteria can take 50-60% of your resistances and so can Valdaran, but it is easier to overcap resistances than adding an extra 450 DA to your character without butchering it. From a defensive perspective the Nightblade >>> Demolitionist. Perhaps the most appropriate step would be to first decrease the amount of -DA some mobs put on you, instead of buffing the masteries and see what happens in terms of build viability.

6

I like it how everyone goes on how important hp is and hence how OP soldier and shaman are, but somehow only rare builds go batshit with it. The truth is hp is just an arbitrary number a given player is comfortable with. If your sustain is higher than damage taken then it doesn’t matter how much hp you have provided you aren’t bursted down.

Also Arcanist’s MSP easily rivals Soldier’s MC and Shaman’s HotW, last time I checked it scales better with ultimate levels as well.

You also completely ignore the access to non-phys resistances in different masteries, while it might allow you to use hp item instead of resist item in the end.

Edit: I do agree that with everything else combined Demo is probably at weak side, the question is if his offensive kit makes up for it or not.

7

I agree on DA reduction. This is why I called DA as an unreliable defensive layer (not calling it bad but an unreliable one since DA reduction is very common)

-Somehow increasing mastery HP bonus kinda slipped my mind, yeah it’s actually much better solution :stuck_out_tongue:

-Umm, even with low CD a slight buff to PB wouldn’t hurt imo

-I’m surprised you love BB, is it because we have a blades swirling around us?:rolleyes:

-10% on max Temper is too low, but as you say S&B commandos can get max Temper easily. Temper is also left at one pointer since most builds lack skill points
10%-15% Physical Resistance to Blast Shield sounds more reasonable but you did bring up the CDR problem
I think they should simply add 8-10% as a permanent stat and not have it scale at all :stuck_out_tongue:

-Why do you say FT will get a nerfed? What crime did it commit? :frowning:

In the defensive layers section I highlighted that both HP pool and ability to defend it is important

I also clubbed Occutlist and Arcanist into a single “bubble” and said their ability to protect their HP pool is the reason why I don’t consider them weak despite having no innate HP bonus
I also listed Necro as a class that can’t defend it’s HP pool reliably as it doesn’t have any permanent layer of defense. MoT is temporary and ADCtH is restricted to Vitality builds

I didn’t go into great detail but I’m guessing I should have

Yeah it slipped my mind, thanks
I will list resistance to other damage types

Btw all comment pertain to “Defensive” section. Any comments on “Offensive” section’ suggestions?

8

Larger pool is always nice as it give you extra time/space before you die. Aslo, due to percentile healing larger pool mean better sustain. Even for ADCTH-heavy build with no healing larger life pool is more important that armor.

To add something as a resolution to point 1. Some phys resistance to Temper. Something like 8% at lvl 12 (because it has armor too) With diminishing returns after 12. Like 10% at lvl 22(this is to balance chars like Markovian and WB who can easily get 21/22 temper and are already tanky)

I dont like any %phyz res addition to Temper. It would make borderline-broken Commandos even more powerfull and push Purifiers even further toward Conviction.

9

I agree on DA reduction. This is why I called DA as an unreliable defensive layer (not calling it bad but an unreliable one since DA reduction is very common) ehh, At 3600 it is quite reliable. You get hit almost 50% less sometimes. You can rest assured that when crucible update will come, Da will become vastly abused. Only then some changes may occur

-I’m surprised you love BB, is it because we have a blades swirling around us?:rolleyes: It looks bad ass and i like the ideea, a moment to breathe, regen and get back into the fight. But the skill would be far more appealing with lower CD making for interesting gameplay.

-10% on max Temper is too low, but as you say S&B commandos can get max Temper easily. Temper is also left at one pointer since most builds lack skill points
10%-15% Physical Resistance to Blast Shield sounds more reasonable but you did bring up the CDR problem
I think they should simply add 8-10% as a permanent stat and not have it scale at all :stuck_out_tongue: If they do this they will put it on Searing might transmuter or smth and all other builds will cry for it:eek:

-Why do you say FT will get a nerfed? What crime did it commit? :frowning: Zantai giveth then Zantai taketh.:smiley: Given the history I’d rather not aid in tempting fate with Flame touched.

@Ptirodaktill Personally i’d never touch Conviction on Purifier, not any more. As for temper i can understand. commando and WB are also my main concerns.

10

Besides being only slightly worse than an exclusive ability, available at T5 instead of T50? Nothing. I think it’s fine though.

11

We both know 3600 isn’t realistic for every build unless they do a second wave of DA handout

U wot m8 :eek:

Seriously though, they can’t do this w/o killing a bunch of builds. It’s been like that for quite some time and I don’t find it to be broken. If we’re going with T5 and T50 logic then Blade Trap and Blade Spirit should be Tier 1 end game skills but they’re not.
So this logic of reasoning shouldn’t be backed up
Not to mention it ain’t broken so nerf is not needed

12

Because you would do really poor damage. Whether FS(like the terminator I posted) or FoI. All is well with conviction until mid 145. Then the inability to dispatch key enemies quickly enough is fatal no matter your tankyness.

it’s just my experience.

i made that Runebinder tactician btw. Censure again. W/O it i castrate both runes and it’s really bad, especially Haggarad since i’m tactician and have no veil.

13

And you proved my point that I made for Censure in a different thread, it is only good if you could cap defenses and OA which isn’t easy for every build. Soldier obviously helps with this. They should consider buffing Censure, currently it’s just an exclusive version of VoS w/o the OA and Speed reduction

Btw impressive job, is Kalastor doing anything to the bosses?

14

“Always nice” is exactly right words for this. It’s always nice to have extra DA as well, but just not getting crit plus some margin is fine.

Heals are the worst type of sustain in my opinion, because you either overheal or put yourself in danger. The exception is Wendigo Totem and probably PB on melee DW build since 5 sec cd is quite low.

As for your statements on health vs armor - it’s very complicated, because raising armor is harder than raising health. But I’m pretty sure that wearing heavy armor instead of light is more important than 1-2k extra health. Provided that you have at least 10k, ofcourse.

15

Ofc. 1.6 Cd both Runes with Fissure bound to Kalastor. ~55% pierce to fire, affecting Haggarad too which is cool. Obviously Haggarad does more single target but Kalastor with Fissore is just total chaos :smiley: and Both runes is crazy. Hardest part is energy management.

16

My problem with Kalasor is that it isn’t potent against single target while Haggard rocks that shit :cool:
Really glad Fissure is gaining some recognition, the skill is pretty decent for clearing screen

17

Yeah i think Rune cost should be a bit toned down really. Each Rune serves a different purpose and when you pot them together it’s quite a show

18

Very good write up and brought up a lot of good points, i do agree with a lot of what you pointed out.

  • For myself i feel the lacking defensive aspect in NB, Demo, Arcanist a lot and how situational their tools are for certain builds.

  • Instead of Flame Touched, Vindictive Flame can use a HP bonus since it is a hit or miss skill for many and having a HP bonus on it can encourage people to invest more into the skill other than either 1 pointer or leaving it at 11.

  • If BB had less scaling CD values i’d definitely invest more into it. Although reaction based, it would be still as useful as a circuit breaker which NB does need imo.

  • Arcanist definitely needs a RR reduction since certain builds have 0 access to RR and dreadfully low HP in cases of Spellbreaker and Sorcerer(tho combined outcome of Sorcerer has an amazing defensive aspect)

  • DA most likely will be the most crucial stat in the upcoming patch but yeah very few classes can reach high numbers due to also the limitations of the items designed for said classes.
    And unless stacked in really high amounts, it isn’t a reliable line of defense same with Fumble and Impaired aim.
    Yet same with HP regen, how many classes or builds can reach really high amounts of HP regen to rely on it and at cost of how much offensive aspect.

** This may be irrelevant or may belong to a different thread but i feel the way Crate designed several items synergise perfectly with the weaknesses of each class along with the lack of any item to depend on in similar direction you mentioned.

Some sets and items do nothing but deepen the weakness of each class possess, those items could have designed in a way to boost the defensive/offensive aspects of the said classes but instead add nothing to the table other than being lackluster and this the reason why some of them are never ever even considered to be used or spawned any successful build.

The best example i can give is Nex and Ortus. Unnoticable procs, irrelevant bonus to ABB as a DW set that boosts a main hand damage only skill that is nothing but unreliable for DW builds and no item support to depend on overall.
Due to lack of defensive sources to Saboteur class combo i had to resort to using Justicar set for NexOrtus build altough more than half of it’s bonuses are wasted with barely any +skill points. This shows how minimal to no support some already lackluster sets and items have when combined with the defensively weak classes.

19

And then no more survivability balancing threads were ever made again and every one l̶i̶v̶e̶d̶ farmed happily ever after.

20

Enrgy PITA is a bane to most non-arcanist casters unfortunately. At least we have harp now=]