[Feedback] Sets Balance [WiP]

Introduction
The aim of this thread is to present feedback on sets that either are considered underperforming or were forgotten. The tests were done (and are being done) collectively which means that what i am presenting here is the fruit of our hivemind’s work. Thanks to the ones who participated and will participate in the future.

Our criteria are: CR timing (+average), CR succes rate and performance compared to non-set (or not full set) alternatives. That being said, its also worth understanding how sets support certain archetype or how they fail to do so and why.

Sets
Here is the list of the sets that are going to be discussed: (as the more tests will be done, in no particular order)

Runebinder

Done by @nofika4u


(i agree with everything above, one correction though - adding armor piercing wouldnt convert RoK’s phys into pierce)
Vindicator - https://www.grimtools.com/calc/D2prYgjZ
MH - https://www.grimtools.com/calc/vNQMPqXNVideo
Infil - https://www.grimtools.com/calc/O2GgelJ2Video
How does it perform compared to non set variants? Poorly:
Elemental MH - CR 4.18
Pierce Infil - CR 4.39 and much tankier.
So full runebinder is simply either terrible or obsolete. Why? Because it poorly supports the rune archetype. Set provides 3 things - AA (which is bad), up to 33% cdr and flat to runes. Its not hard to understand that flat damage for rune doesnt do much, as runes have a lot of it by default and the values sets give fall in comparison. Which is better adding 79 flat cold and 8% crit to a skill that has ~400 flat cold or converting 400 pierce into cold? For elemental the problem of runebinder is that it blocks this conversion on Hag and then doesnt add anything meaningful to it instead. For RoK even 1 extra projectile adds more damage than 104 flat. Which brings us to the conclusion that 5 points bonus from runebinder is bad for runes and one is better off with either 4 pieces or simply with other gear (as demonstrated in nofika’s MH).
As for pierce side - -10% rr to seal is a joke. Moreover, RoK cannot be used on pierce because physical cant be converted and pierce RoK conduit is already taken. Tbh it would be better if the set gave up on pierce.
Then general weakness - double runes is very point hungry (5 nodes + AH + Seal) meaning that set at most gives a couple of skillpoints for each node. Which makes it replacable to average +1 to inq on weapons, head and amulet slot. Again, not in favor of full runebinder.
Also worth to mention that double rune is just hard to play due to long delay and positioning and takes a lot of practice to be piloted efficiently.
Conclusion: Set faills at supporting its archetype and is completely redundant to other options, being all around worse.

  • Allagast
  • Targo
  • Korba
  • Ludrigan
  • Stronghold
  • Rotgheist
  • Goredrinker
  • Veilkeeper
  • Octavius
  • Virtue
  • Harra
  • Agrivix
  • Valdun
  • Harbinger
10 Likes

I think the only problem with this set is set bonus skill. It should be changed to with something contributes sustain. Full set builds definitely have sustain problems. A good complete set skill/bonus with proper heal would be great.

Only problem I see with this set is the base damage of weapons; you can’t possibly get more phys>cold conversion so most of the damage got wasted by the lack of conversion. Some MI Axe’s have partially physical/partially X damage on them, if these get the same treatment it would be great.

I don’t know about it’s DEE part but for Vitality PS; damage looks great, but feels very bad in the game. Set should support bleeding damage aswell, it can contribute for thrash killing speed.

I’m actually playing Runebinder Infiltrator with focus on cold right now. Haven’t reached SR yet, but it’s pretty good in main campaign, that’s for sure. Will provide some feedback in a coupla days or so.

Honestly, Savagery mod could just get 100% phys to cold. Though the main problem for me personally is the lack of skill points. All my attempts at trying this set ended skill point starved to death. Chest gives only +2 to Savagery, helmet provides some lousy +2 to Mog’s Pact, lol. And that’s for a class that has to max out both mastery bars.

Tried this on purifier and shieldbreaker. Paladin felt good, stable tank and relatively decent damage, although I need a @romanN1 crucible run to sanity check my SR results. Shieldbreaker was unplayable with a pure ranged damage focus and not having BWC for DR, too many deaths. Getting points for BWC strips the damage down to purifier levels, at which point I didn’t see a reason to try it. Was planning to revisit this in 1.1.9.2 and see if I could get it stable. Either way, I’d estimate for ranged in the 5-5:30 timeframe, which is below average for most other build types. Also required using fire strike, RF was very low damage and not worth doing.

Will sound flippant but getting 2 handed gun savagery running is difficult enough, this was a nightmare from the autoattack side of things.

I’m in agreement with this. I’ve tried building around chilling rounds using this set and ilgorr’s medal, but it just never came together. You have to invest in attack speed and flat damage to even attempt to make it work, but the damage is still super lackluster to the point where you just forego investment in chilling rounds

2 Likes

In a perfect world I think this whole set should get a rework similar to Trozan’s or Iskandra’s. Thematically it feels off, too. Targo is a master craftsman. I think Armor, Targo the Builder constellation, Anvil constellation, Hammer constellation. I do not think Nightblade, I do not think Amarasta’s Blade Burst and I certainly do not think Blade Arc. The set has a one-handed hammer and wants you to use Blade Arc!

Do you know what I do think of? Temper, Blast Shield and Fire Strike, as in “strike while the iron is hot”. This should be the Melee Physical Fire Strike set. Convert that Lightning and Fire to Physical. Point the player towards using a shield for the constellations above and going Shieldbreaker or Commando. Give Targo’s Mallet some +targets to Fire Strike and suddenly the set completion proc is looking pretty spicy with all those Explosive Strikes going off.

Well the topic is about making those sets strong and physical melee Fire Strike isn’t exactly going to be stronger than 1h Blade Arc.

It should be retal cause we certainly need another phys retal build after the ones we have got stale and it fits the theme because Targo makes armor so good the enemies hurt themselves while they hit you kappa

In case you guys took the above part seriously, then my serious opinion is to wait for grey to finish the targo part cause I honestly don’t know what to do with that set without breaking current support.

Forget about performance for a second, Runebinder just doesn’t feel good to play. The two low-cooldown skills don’t mix well with Runic Bolts. I think that in an ideal world the set would have modifiers on both runes to increase cooldown + total damage, that way you would actually have time to shoot at things like you’re supposed to. I’m not sure if having 200% casting + attack speed alleviates the problem enough.

https://www.grimtools.com/calc/qNYrE6r2
not much to say, as I’ve laready made a feedback thread about Goredrinker and it’s performance. Set support (or is supposed to support) pierce/bleed cadence and VM but struggles at both.
The problem is very insignificant amount of bleed (compare this to Bloodrager, e.g.), lack of DA, inability to hardcap cadence.
actually, out of 3 runs with the build above I finished 0 cuz I just got smashed. One can take WC but difference won’t be that big, and also casting it with 135% cs is pure pita.
For crucible, best run was about 4:53 but it’s really lucky one as mostly I got destroyed. For SR … I got 1-shotted by Moosi at SR75. That’s all to say.

https://www.grimtools.com/calc/nZoalPz2
also wrote a lot about this set. tried both ranged and melee druids with it (aether and lightning) and results were depressive. I mean, Upheaval itself here hits hard. Really hard. But even with current amount of OA it’s not possible to proc it consistently. Set laso lacks flat (crucial for melee) and phys resist. So maybe add some lightning flat to, say, IEE and like 4-8% OA to it. Or even some gimmicky stuff like +1 target to Savagery. Arcanist part here is weak, for necro I’d better ask @eardianm.
Crucible times are about 5-5:15, when successfully finished. SR75-76 is ± okayish but low DA plays its role.

https://www.grimtools.com/calc/O2Gge662
sturdy but super-slow and very boring set. as for a good example of a converted-phys-based set I’ll always now mention Spellscourge: although some values on it could be still increased, set is tanky and very pleasant to play in both SR and Crucible.
Octavius, actually, lacks everything. There’s almost no OA bonus on the set, RoK is weak and needs time to activate (rune gameplay is incredibly cancerous), CD FW is just bad. with all mods here, it’s weak and is good just for stunning stuff. Among other problems - low energy regen, low bonuses to RoK damage (better just replace it with 50% total damage modifier or sth like that, not just that snall flat). IT itself is kinda weak and feels long forgotten.
Crucible time (at best) was 6 mins, SR85 is okay but I see 0 point in this build and set for myself when there’s a better alternative.

3 Likes

Had decent results (~4:50 CR) doing VoS ritualist with aether/lightning split and only upheaval, but it does require multiple OA specific green affixes, which doesn’t seem great for practical build usage. Before that point you have to use the necro WPS which is a decent dps hit over pure upheaval. Also required a seer kaisan necklace to get last savagery charge. So basically ehhh, lot of specific gear to get sub 5 results. I leaned into the full dual damage aspect of it, started to look at pure aether for ritualist and the OA fell off hard with gear changes to support that.

https://www.grimtools.com/calc/p25OEemZ

Absolutely agree, not to mention that there is low availability for OA on physical/trauma on devotion. Oleron’s Rage is a must have for Octavius build, making Paladin version lacking OA despite sMax AoC and Presence Virtue.

https://www.grimtools.com/calc/4ZDBW482

1 Like

and the fun fact is that Paladin still has more OA than Tactician, lol

1 Like

Why are you using CR to determine which sets are good or not? It seems to me that would invite significant bias as the CR balance is nothing like the main game or SR. It undervalue single target damage and defensive stats (esp health, physical resistance and cc resistance) and overvalues AoE damage.

For example even though it does decently in CR I would add Dagallon to to the list of sets that are underpowered to most alternatives due:
1)It being extremely glassy(no physical res+ medium armor) for an auto attack build (on the level of having trouble defeating Korvaak on ultimate).
2)Mediocre single target dps due the dual lighting/fire damage type, low amount of attack speed + base damage/damage% on the weapons.

On an other note I find good illustration of this bias to be inclusion of octavius. This kind of reasoning basically means increasing the dps of defensive sets but doing very little to boosting the defensive side of dps sets.
This kinds of balance reasoning has led to a shieldbreaker blizz set(Justice) + Desolator making a far better firestrike set for a purifier then a Purifier Fire Strike set . This should not be possible or in any case the difference should not be that large.

1 Like

I don’t actually play crucible much at all and stick to SR75+ testing, but crucible times do give a bit better of a baseline than just saying it completes SR75-76. And SR times are generally all over the place and move impacted by classes with movement skills. Last notable example I had was havoc tactician, that could do SR75-76, with very careful play even 85, but was 6+ minutes in crucible when it was actually able to finish, which wasn’t very often. That said both should probably be clarified for benchmarking.

Surprised by the dagallon comment, if it can run CR in the low 4s I wouldn’t expect it to have major issues with solo Korvaak. Justice + desolator is considerably lower on the damage scale but does have additional defenses, which seems like a reasonable tradeoff? Issue there imo is justice set having like 90% of the available fire flat damage on armor pieces, although similar results can be had focusing chaos + lightning conversion gear instead.

2 Likes

Well this. No one really said cruci should be the only benchmark. It’s just what grey chose to be his criteria but no one’s really stopping anyone from giving feedback based on SR. It’s just that currently SR is a less concrete metric because clear times aren’t standardized yet (above SR75 that is) and just saying “I can clear SR 85 with this with no deaths” isn’t enough since a lot of unoptimized builds can just clear it through some kiting and player skill which doesn’t really help a lot in determining if a certain build/set has too much or too little damage.

What I said above doesn’t apply to builds that get to SR90+ imo.

Access to Shattering Smash alone solves a bunch of the problems with the set, so yes I do think Fire Strike would be better. Blade Arc has maximum targets and ABB projectiles don’t Pierce making two of the three skills the set wants you using quite poor at proccing the set proc. Fire Strike with +targets combined with explosive strike and wps skills is a proccing machine. Two of the three classes have no physical RR. Even with a full CDR offhand you’re not hitting 100% uptime on War Cry because the set gives almost no CDR. We already have a much better physical one-handed Blade Arc set in Spellscourge and that set even provides additional RR to the skill itself.

If the opinion is to keep the sets thematically and functionally the same then I think you need RR somewhere. Were I to address the set as it currently exists I would add a nice chunk of RR to the set proc and up the weapon damage to somewhere between 25% and 50% so that one could reasonably use it for ADCtH. I don’t like tying the RR to any one skill because I think you’re already shoehorned into Oathkeeper. The other option being adding reduced cooldown to War Cry on the Head and giving RR to Veil of Shadow. You don’t want to add flat RR to ABB because then you’re in a situation where going Blademaster gives two sources that don’t stack. It’s my understanding that you can’t give %RR to effects that don’t have a duration, but I could be wrong there.

Another interesting idea could be to give the set proc armor-stripping similar to the Bear constellation instead of RR. That effect is extremely rare and would be a welcome addition to a mediocre proc.

As a left-field alternative for Targo, make its 4pc bonus enable 1H forcewave spam. That’s an archetype with a decent amount of gear variety to work with.

Runebinder

Here’s my attempt at full Runebinder Infiltrator with focus on cold: https://www.grimtools.com/calc/q2mAx802. Fire and lightning damages also provide an okay support I guess.

So anyway, people say that full RB is garbage, and while I agree the set has some problems, they’re not that drastic. As I understand, the main struggle is that build occupies 6 slots, which greatly limits gear choices, and kinda forces hybrid AA/caster playstyle. But here are some issues I felt the most impactful:

  1. Healing. Despite 10-12% life leech and two healing skills on a rather low cooldown, healing can be pretty challenging sometimes. Mostly when facing a single hard hitting enemy like Iron Maiden, Fabius, Grava and surprisingly Theodin Marcell was giving me a bit of a hard time.
  2. Attack speed. It’s not terrible, but not great either. Couple it with “not-a-huge-amount” of life leech and healing through weapon damage of Runic Bolts becomes a bit harder, considering we don’t have much %WD sources otherwise (only 16% on Blizzard and 15% on Elemental Blast). I know in 1.1.9.2 Kraken will get more attack speed, which is great, but set itself could use a little bump in that department as well.
  3. DoT damage. Even when focusing on a single element like cold in this instance, frostburn damage barely reaches ~2.1k% (spirit bonus included). Not sure if it would be too much to ask to add some more %burn, electrocute and frostburn to either set bonus or weapon.
  4. AA damage. Sheet DPS shows something around 80k when standing on seal, with Runic Bolts stacks and Deadly Aim, which is not bad for a granted skill, but it feels like AA part is carried mostly by WPS.

Here’s a video of a full SR65-66 run:

Died once by being pummeled to death by a mob of angry Arcane monsters (two Arcane’s are better thatn one, remember that kids!) + Valdaran, so yeah. Damage is pretty good overall, but I got -6% cold res mutator.

Some suggestions on how to improve the set a bit more

  1. Add 2-4% life leech to the weapon. Pretty self explanatory. It will either help to heal more health with each shot, or will help focusing on other stats a bit more (e.x. to take Ignaffar’s Combustion instead of Bane, or swap Restless Remains to some other component). Or go a more original way and give % increased healing received stat to the set.
  2. Improve attack speed on the granted skill slightly. To ~22% or so.
  3. Add more % DoT damages somewhere on the set. Also add missing % burn damage to chest piece (% frostburn is on hat and amulet; % burn is only on shoulders).
  4. Add more flat elemental damage, so that Runic Bolts would deal better damage. Probably on the full set bonus.

Obviously I’m not expecting all of those being added, but at least something from the list would be great nonetheless!

What’s the deal with not having Murmur on a Cold build? You could bind it to Storm Spread or Silver Spread. Otherwise I don’t have problems with your build.

Build already has 115 RR + Viper. I considered that as enough =)