[Feedback] Sets Balance [WiP]

So much for discussion, oh my! Also funny stuff how Runebinder got Hagarrad part buffed. Not what the set needed, but it beats nothing I guess.

Anyway, back to the topic. Wanted to try Harbinger for quite some time, but Pyro is kinda boring and it has Darkblaze anyway, Deceiver I’m not interested in, and so, this leaves the only sane option: chaos Cadence! But not just regular chaos Cadence, because amusingly enough the set blocks both conversion options for it, but globally converted one. Which still works.

I know that Rah’zin exists, but it limits gear choices to pretty much zero. So, without further ado…

The Harbinger

https://www.grimtools.com/calc/q2MQEWm2

Insane % chaos damage, one of the highest %WD skills, lots of flat damage, 100 chaos RR, AS is close to cap. Sounds beastly? Well, it kinda is, but sometimes this build has “damage swings”, but that’s Cadence for you, I guess.

Single target damage is pretty high, which shouldn’t come as a surpise with that amount of damage (sheet DPS shows something like ~290k with all buffs active). Doom Bolt also provides nice burst damage - and that’s the main purpouse of the skill anyway.

AoE damage… it exists. Although it’s a bit of a crapshoot: sometimes you can clear groups in 2-3 seconds, and sometimes you can struggle with them. Probably it’s mostly related to WPS RNG, and how enemies are alligned (obviously). Doom Bolt helps a bit, too.

Speaking of WPS, its chance totals at 52%, which is okay, but it could use an improvement. I’m speaking of Shadowflame WPS proc chance - it’s only 10%. It’s pretty damn low (well, it’s the lowest % amoung all of WPS), and I had times when it simply wouldn’t proc for half a minute or even more. Sometimes it will fire two times in a row or even 3-4 times in a quick succession - and those are the moments when it feels realy good to shoot that big ol gun.

Another, uh, problem is CC resists. I understand the idea of giving all of it to the proc making the player nearly unkillable for a short duration, but after that they are left with what they can muster, which isn’t much. Fighting Valdaran can be a bitch.

Elemental and aether res are - as always on chaos builds - in quite some trouble. Had to use two “of Arcane Winds” suffixes to help that, as well as get some slow res and energy regen. Probably must get a double rare with “Thunderstruck” prefix to help with stun res, too.

Energy sustain was pretty tight, so had to solve that somehow. Have put some points in Spirit, used the above mentioned suffix and Arcane Dust in amulet, which is pretty much required anyway to help with elemental res. With those measures energy regen is quite respectable, but the gun could probably use some as well.

And I think the final issue (or maybe not that of an issue) is, in all seriousness, is crowd control! Build has some knockdown from Burning Void, some terrify retaliation from Hungering Void (which is annoing in all honesty) and -% movement speed from Eldritch Fire. That’s it! You can get swarmed right quick and repositioning won’t solve much, as some enemies are Usain Bolts and will encyrcle you before you even know it.

Here’s the vid of SR65-66, as always. I took the trouble to count the amount of times the granted proc had go off. I also wanted to count the amount of Shadoflame procs, but that was a bit above my paygrade XD

Possible suggestions:

  1. First and foremost! Improve % to proc on Shadowflame WPS. 15% sounds about right. It’s restrictive enough as it is (only ranged 2h weapons, can’t use on aether builds), so no need for it to proc “not-so-frequently”. I know that Deceivers and Pyro’s won’t give a damn because they have their own means. You also obviously can only use one Seal of the Void as opposed to, say, Darkblaze Pyro where you can get two + two WPS’s from DB pistols. Adjust damage numbers accordingly, if needed.
  2. That’s probably too much, but I’ll write it anyway: some kind of CC resist (even Petrify) would be nice to have. Probably somewhere on the gun, as gloves + helmet have been seen used on a lot of other chaos builds.
  3. This one may sound a bit weird, but is it possible to add some form of crowd control to the set? I’m seeing stun, petrify, or maybe confuse being on Doom Bolt skill mod. Of course the trashiest of mobs will die right away, but beefier ones might stop for a second or two. Should also be a bit thematic, I think =\

Other than that, can’t complain much. It performs pretty well in SR, although not sure about Crucible. I expect it to be unreliable mostly due to lack of AoE and/or crowd control.

Some Allagast feedback

Lightning Druid https://www.grimtools.com/calc/RZRbaexZ (tested different devo paths and relics)

Ironically pure lightning Druid is the best performing version of Allagast. @romanN1 started testing lightning Druid, I was skeptical at first but it’s actually pretty decent. Still worse than Trozan and custom cold/lightning Druid but hey, Allagast is playable!
I didn’t try lightning Mage Hunter but I know @Plasmodermic did a while back and had similar results to this Druid.

4:35 crucible with very good mutators.

Aether Mage Hunter https://www.grimtools.com/calc/wV1xQvw2

The grimtools is lacking everything. Low HP, phys res, %dmg, crit, OA, DA… So results from testing was actually better than expected.
Build struggles with skillpoints, I decided to skip seal here. Plays very clunky because there’s so many spells to cast all the time. My first thoughts to fix this was either keep spam Box and turn TSS to a long CD nuke or change Box bonuses to WoP.
Also why is there no aether %damage bonus to Deadly Aim?

5:22 crucible which seems better than average. I didn’t finish many runs because this build is painful to play.

I don’t think an increase in damage numbers is a good fix for Allagast, I believe the set needs some rework. Lightning part is OK I guess, although a scuffed version of other options. Aether part however, whether it’s lightning hybrid or pure aether, is just horrible to play. There’s just too much stuff to cast. Also needs to equip 2piece Eastern for TSS points which does nothing for aether and TSS still isn’t hardcapped.
Imo there’s enough support for lightning TSS and I would love to see some acid support for Arcanist, it would make for some interesting Templar builds. Maybe it doesn’t fit the Allagast theme but a set supporting aether/acid TSS would be cool.

4 Likes

i would like to comeback with an old classic, good old agrivix!

[PT] Agrivix Sorc - YouTube

I think it needs more wisps for better rr appliance, maybe increased rr to 30 from 24 and lightning damage also to be converted to aether (full conversion).

EDIT

Here’s an even more offensive setup.

[PT] Agrivix Sorc (more offensive setup) - YouTube

Allagast generally feels like a forgotten set, its just ugly. Why does it support Lightning TSS if theres atleast two better ways to do it? Why does Deadly Aim missing %aether damage? What on earth is this 3 set completion bonuses, ive seen epic sets having better 2 pieces bonuses than this atrocity. And the best part - magehunter and the set doesnt even need those resistances to begin with.


But enough with theory, time for practice - https://www.grimtools.com/calc/lNkzoAlZ
Went for Lightning+Aether because itemization felt comfortable + arcanist allows for huge spirit dump that benefits hybrid.
Results are - death, death, 5.52, 5.49


(dont want to upload such a lenghty video with this connection)

First thing first - its a terrible piano. Having to cast 3 debuffs without CD is already enough but then the build has TSS and CL (no sustain w/o it). Needless to say it was a horrible experience playing it. Secondly - only TSS has the damage, box is just a gimcrack for RR (atleast on hybrid version). The damage itself is, well, 5.50 in my hands. Sustainability is fine if you’re standing in seal and rotate Null+Mirror, but thats not the sets job.

All in all i fully agree with the positon above that set needs to be reworked in strictly to aether TSS and that inquisition side needs a bump. Also want to point out the 3 piece bonuses - please change them into something that is better than most blue sets 2 piece completion bonuses.

3 Likes

Lol in before Zantai just switches the two pieces set bonus with the three pieces set bonus. :rofl: (Markovian and Agrivix have the same set bonus but it’s the two pieces set bonus)

The thing is if you focus fully on the lightning side, you’re getting some second rate TSS MH and awfully glassy Vindicator. With mine version, couldn’t beat even 160 in Crucible!!! https://www.grimtools.com/calc/4VxRP1EN

I agree set should focus on aether TSS and also box. Both skills can use that support.

1 Like

You’re right the set should keep lightning %dmg to allow focus on lightning Box and TSS should be fully converted to aether. I’m not sure about spam Box though as it makes the playstyle too awkward. As aether you’re using; spam skill, low CD Box, WoP, TSS. Add to that Seal, if you can find the skill points, Aether Corruption because it holds so much value for this build. I usually enjoy active builds but this is too much for me.

Maybe removing the CDR for Box (or even make it longer CD) is the best solution and give it some extra steroids. Also as grey said, the 3set bonus should be changed to something useful. Preferably something to help survivability issues which every version seems to struggle with.

Also, please TSS skill points! :slight_smile:

2 Likes

Harra feedback

It’s a cool set. Every spell supported having both a spam and a cooldown version in combination with the flexibility of cold devo-paths make for tons of possible builds. Some parts of the set are performing decent and some are a bit lackluster.

I started testing with spam Phantasmal Blades.
Infiltrator https://www.grimtools.com/calc/8NKDJ582
The build is pretty sturdy with hard-capped Seal and the leech from PB but the damage is not there. I tested some different gear and devotion options but was unable to go under 5 minutes in crucible, I had a few runs at 5:15. An Infiltrator unable to go sub 5 tells me the PB part of the set is rather weak and I went into Spellbreaker tests with pretty low expectations.

5:15 crucible

Spellbreaker https://www.grimtools.com/calc/YVWbY472
I like how it plays and the damage is better than Infiltrator, the frostburn from Callidor’s Tempest seems to do a lot of work. Pretty squishy, I assembled it for damage, but I’m not sure how much can be done to improve tankiness without destroying damage output. Low health is a common theme in a lot of Harra builds.

My best run, 4:42 crucible


I didn’t test any builds with cooldown PB because it doesn’t make a lot of sense to me without any dot damage attached to it.

Stun Jacks Saboteur https://www.grimtools.com/calc/bVAaKpBV by @supertolik
Fun to play and the single target damage is great. Decent in crucible but struggles in SR according to supertolik. Biggest weakness seems to be sustain which is covered in CR by quickly destroying nemesis waves. Could use some more health.
Briefly tested CD Stun Jacks but it didn’t seem very good to me and clunky to use.

My best run, 4:29 crucible

Callidor’s Tempest Spellbreaker https://www.grimtools.com/calc/p25x4gPN by @banana_peel and @supertolik
Lacking some damage, bad mutators really makes the build struggle. I can imagine sustain being an issue vs single target in SR. Low health.
Crucible results:
5:34
5:10
Death
4:45
Death
4:52

4:45 crucible

My suggestions:
Increase health
Frostburn mod to PB
Increase leech for SJ
Weapon dmg mod for CT to help leech and damage

6 Likes

a bit more about Goredrinker set.
this may sound hilarious, but it is still bad.
for new test, I dropped the seal and went all-in for WC: https://www.grimtools.com/calc/4VxzmAbN
there are not enough points for both seal and WC so i decided that damage reduction would be better.
well, it wasn’t. out of 3 runs, died 3 times.
2 deaths at 170 (1 to solo Valdaran), 1 at 165 to solo Fabius’ BB.
the problems with damage are still there:

  1. Poor solo-damage. Under all buffs I have like 208k of Cadence tooltip and only 165 of them are pierce, others are bleed and etc.
    What can be done?
  • add +2 to Cadence to reavers or add extra %WD to reavers/set itself.
  • add degree arc to Cadence, as now these 8 target bonus is half-wasted because of awful 160’ arc.
  1. Poor AoE.

This can be solved either by adding the extra degree arc to cadence, or by adding some damage to WoP and giving it 100% ele->pierce conversion as now it’s converted only for 1/3 and doesn’t work either than some minor DoT and RR applier.

1 Like

Rotgheist
Conjurer DEE - https://www.grimtools.com/calc/q2mzbRzV (in game 3378 OA and ~2950 DA due to top rolls.)
Went for conj because Sent had 11k hp, 2600 DA and twice as low rr.
On paper ~150% crit damage, ~3500% vit damage, high DA, 36% phys res and 17% absorption, 200% CS, a plenty of CDR for HV’s uptime, -169% RR.
In reality - death, 5.52, death, death.


Words cannot transmit how bad DEE is here, as bad as fire one. It just doesnt deal the damage it should.

5 Likes

I was actually wondering a few days ago if someone, you in particular, is testing Rotgheist DEE :thinking:

yep, DEE
pepeRotvDEEE

Based on my experience with DEE, it’s totally shouldn’t deal any damage to be on par with rest of DEE damage types except acid.

I’ve tried before vitality spamming Cabalist and CDR Sentinel. Cabalist dies all the time and is so slow. CDR worked better but not because of DEE (if I even need to specify it)

Fire and Chaos with Ember set aren’t any good. Spam chaos can be made into 5:40-5:50 Crucible build with brute strength stacking WD and mods like crazy. But DEE core looks broken if you need acid’s crazy good procs, 4k % damage and good all-around set to make it work. And that’s after numerous patches of straight buffs to both skill and set/support gear…

1 Like

4.8k% mind you.
but yeah, it feels like DEE is same as Vines - works well on 1 set, utter garbage on everything else.

1 Like

Shaman side of Rotgheist ain’t so great either.

I was running this guy recently: https://www.grimtools.com/calc/RVvz7vEV

It’s squishy, has energy problems despite maxed Mog’s pact and some energy leech from Viper and Revenant, damage is nothing to write home about, no freeze res got me killed in main campaign when I ran into Moosie (if you let at least one projectile hit you, you’re done for).

Full set grants some extra damage and life leech to PS, which is nice I guess, but I actually went through the trouble and asked around ALL of the monsters of Cairn to see if they care about vitality decay? Turns out, 99.9% of respondents said they “could care less about it”. The remaining 0.01% is the Taken himself: “the only person that gets hurt by it, is me”.

Overall it’s not very pleasant to play, although that’s a bit of a subjective thing. But set needs some more defenses. Gun is also one of the weirdest items in the game: has mods for Pox and MoT, but grants skill points to GoE and Siphon Souls? If it’s a caster weapon, how come it has so much attack speed on it and no casting speed and energy regen?

Rant over XD

3 Likes

I’ve tried Rotgheist some patches ago, not bothering with the VW option and got no luck with either the PS or DEE version. Then got random idea to combine it with Tenebris Scythe to make this Chaos PS Rotgheist, although more like 2/3 chaos 1/3 vitality PS. So far this is the only Rotgheist build that I tried to make that work https://www.grimtools.com/calc/L2Jv4872

1 Like

Next playtest build, we’re going to introduce a fundamental change to DEE that will cause Blood Burst to also strike its primary target, alongside skill modifier changes. This will result in a reduction in overall Energy Cost as well as an increase to its single target potential.

I’m wary of the Sentinel DEE build outlier overperforming because of this as its passthrough modifier will benefit greatly from the Blood Burst change; so will probably adjust that down a bit to compensate, but I would be curious to see the original pilot’s performance as a frame of reference after the new build is up.

9 Likes

sounds great, but need to test it

speaking of pass-through - both BB and VE trigger only from the very first target. Dunno whether its intended because thats rather an unusual interarction.

Hm? Both Blood Burst and Vile Eruption definitely triggers on additional targets.

doesnt seem to work for me:
image

EDIT: so it can work but theres some distance limit (triggers only from one target of each group despite hitting everyone.)