Great Game... but...

[JKoala]

Hello all. I’m new in this forum but not in the game, which I bought like two years ago.
The main reason I’ve registered in the forum is to give feedback, because the little time I can play videogames I like to spend it in Grim Dawn.

The game itself is amazing, it has all one could expect even from the best, or better said, biggest budget games. The chance to mix clases give it the ultimate customization twist…

And there is where the game starts to fail… We all want to get to that end game and be as powerful as possible. People like me spend hours and hours in talent calculator thinking ways and strategies.
But equipment has the ultimate word.

You, and lots of people, state this game has infinite opportunities but thats false. I wanted to make an auto-attack elusive Shaman-Nightblade, striking with Lightning and Bleeding…
And guess how many legendaries have these stats.

I think that for a game with these possibilities you CAN’T give RANDOM stats to equipment, or better said, end game equipment. Because one of two, 1) I have to search from thousand legendaries and get maybe something I don’t want / doesn’t completely fit my build, 2) hands down, I have to adapt my build to those “+4 to Grenado”, for example, I don’t want or need.

I know at this stage you can’t change something as huge as that, but seeing how the game ends, hoping an expansion, you can try to give items EASY stats, like, +1 to all skills, or +1 to all skills in X class.
Maybe more damage or deffensive stats, or passive/active skills…
I don’t know, but I can’t be 2 months playing to get a Shotgun just to realize it’s only for Demolisher. So if I want to play Shotguns or AA style I MUST be Demolisher? That cuts half of the game potential.

Think about that, do we want a TRULY build-freedom game, or a game where you have to tediously search for legendaries and then adapt your build to equipment?

Other thing is the sources of damage. It’s nice all those ways to do damage, but not so nice trying to deffend from all of them We can strike or being struck lot of ways, but you could simplify it.

Fire, Cold, Lightning, Electrocute (wtf, I mean, seriously?), Frostburn… All that, in deffensive and offensive masteries or equipment should be called as “elemental”.
As vitality, chaos and such, could be called “chaotic”.
Bleeding, internal trauma, physical… should be put toghether too, aswel as poison, acid and such.
It’s impossible to get max damage or to deffend if they’re like 20 sources of damage.

And again, in my case, there’s NO talent in the whole Shaman thing improving lightning dmg, but electrocute.

This would be even harder to change… but in these kind of games, people want to be as strong as posible, not thinking “omg, is that huge thing going to kill me?”.
I think the way the game is, has incredible fighting mechanics, and monsters are not as weak as in other similar games, so that’s enough for it.

Please, give us some more late game power and not headaches to get the most out of 123 skill points and 80 stat points.

Thank you for reading this whole huge thing. I hope I’ve given you any idea, or I’ve made you think about the game a little.
And excuse my english, it’s not my mother language
Greetings.

[mamba]

Maybe you should play the game more before complaining, I see a lot of false assumptions / statements.

Legendaries do not have random stats (values yes, bonuses no)

You do not need to pick Grenado just because an item has + to it, no need to make use of every single stat. You are much better off with a good build that ignores it than with one that is all over the place but incorporates all the pluses you happen to stumble across

You do not really adjust your build to equipment, or rather only to a limited degree. You also should not expect to get full endgame sets before you finish the game, they won’t drop and you don’t need them (but they do help).

You do not need to play a Demolitionist to make use of guns.

You can max all (damage type related) resistances (not easy though, but with augments you can get close to maxing specific ones relevant to an area and change that as you progress)

Pick what you want to play based on what the game offers, you would not play an acid & poison based Shaman + Soldier, so why play a Lightning based Shaman + Nightblade.
Pick the proper damage types (bleed, pierce, physical) or the proper masteries (Shaman + Demo, for Lightening, bleed & lightening will stay an odd mix I grant you that).

[Evil_Baka]

Hello all. I’m new in this forum but not in the game, which I bought like two years ago.
The main reason I’ve registered in the forum is to give feedback, because the little time I can play videogames I like to spend it in Grim Dawn.

The game itself is amazing, it has all one could expect even from the best, or better said, biggest budget games. The chance to mix clases give it the ultimate customization twist…

And there is where the game starts to fail… We all want to get to that end game and be as powerful as possible. People like me spend hours and hours in talent calculator thinking ways and strategies.
But equipment has the ultimate word.

You, and lots of people, state this game has infinite opportunities but thats false. I wanted to make an auto-attack elusive Shaman-Nightblade, striking with Lightning and Bleeding…
And guess how many legendaries have these stats.
(First, there are plenty weapons to use for Lightning/Bleed but not both. Stormheart, Crystallum, Crescent Moon come to mind for Lightning and Brutallax/Butcher of Burrwitch for Bleed. Even disregarding those, MIs exist if you are patient enough to farm for them that can cover an immense amount of bases that Legendaries often haven’t filled up yet.)

I think that for a game with these possibilities you CAN’T give RANDOM stats to equipment, or better said, end game equipment. Because one of two, 1) I have to search from thousand legendaries and get maybe something I don’t want / doesn’t completely fit my build, 2) hands down, I have to adapt my build to those “+4 to Grenado”, for example, I don’t want or need.
(Alot of people have said before and I agree with them but this game or games like it do not cater well to playing with or as a single character because of the random loot element. Imagine if you had/were developing 1-5 characters and one of them could use that +4 to Grenado item or that rifle for the Demolitionist?).

I know at this stage you can’t change something as huge as that, but seeing how the game ends, hoping an expansion, you can try to give items EASY stats, like, +1 to all skills, or +1 to all skills in X class.
Maybe more damage or deffensive stats, or passive/active skills…
I don’t know, but I can’t be 2 months playing to get a Shotgun just to realize it’s only for Demolisher. So if I want to play Shotguns or AA style I MUST be Demolisher? That cuts half of the game potential.
(On the shotgun analogy, not necessarily no. + skill bonuses arn’t always the only thing to look in a build or always have to be exploited. Look at the Bane of the Winter King as an example, it gives +1 to Shaman/Nightblade hence you’de think it is designed for/to be used by a Trickster yet a Spellbreaker will perform better as Arcanist gives great bonuses to things like casting speed that paired with the Crown of the Winter King’s granted skill, it can take advantage of.)

Think about that, do we want a TRULY build-freedom game, or a game where you have to tediously search for legendaries and then adapt your build to equipment?
(This game is BASED on grinding or farming for loot. Even so, you don’t need top-end gear or even full legendaries to beat the game or start farming areas such as Cronley’s Hideout or the Twin Falls hive.)

Other thing is the sources of damage. It’s nice all those ways to do damage, but not so nice trying to deffend from all of them We can strike or being struck lot of ways, but you could simplify it.

Fire, Cold, Lightning, Electrocute (wtf, I mean, seriously?), Frostburn… All that, in deffensive and offensive masteries or equipment should be called as “elemental”.
As vitality, chaos and such, could be called “chaotic”.
Bleeding, internal trauma, physical… should be put toghether too, aswel as poison, acid and such.
It’s impossible to get max damage or to deffend if they’re like 20 sources of damage.
(Oh god please no. This would simplify so much of the game and I might be one person in a million when I say this but I LIKE the complex mess we have now.)

And again, in my case, there’s NO talent in the whole Shaman thing improving lightning dmg, but electrocute.
(Late game, when your gear/devotion/other sources are able to amass 1000 - 1500% in Lightning Damage, what’s another 100% going to do? Instead, you should also look to/consider other sources such as crit damage that Stormcaller’s Pact gives you in a large chunk or attack speed).

This would be even harder to change… but in these kind of games, people want to be as strong as posible, not thinking “omg, is that huge thing going to kill me?”.
I think the way the game is, has incredible fighting mechanics, and monsters are not as weak as in other similar games, so that’s enough for it.

Please, give us some more late game power and not headaches to get the most out of 123 skill points and 80 stat points.
(I’m not trying to be a corrective ass or anything, really, but there’s 223 skill points in total, 90 attribute points and neither of those are taking into consideration that ALOT of gear late game will give you + bonuses that mean you can distribute points elsewhere. You have a pretty good amount if you gear correctly).

Thank you for reading this whole huge thing. I hope I’ve given you any idea, or I’ve made you think about the game a little.
And excuse my english, it’s not my mother language
Greetings.

Replies in red. Just my two cents on some things you’ve said, you have your opinions and i have mine ;).

[Malfet]

And again, in my case, there’s NO talent in the whole Shaman thing improving lightning dmg, but electrocute.

Sorry for nitpicking, but Storm Touched and Stormcaller’s Pact give you %chance of big %increase to lightning damage, and Primal Strike have %lightning on it (and% bleeding, actually — ideal for bleed/lightning trickster, no?). As for rest — when classes don’t mix into cocktail you want: don’t give up! Try to compensate with devotions and gear. Grab something like Tempest or Spear of the Heavens for % lightning, otherwise Huntress or Mogdrogen the Wolf for bleed. Or just take Kraken for huge bonus to both lightning an bleed if you are going two-handed (or smaller %total damage sources, like Jackal, if you Dual-wielding).

I won’t lie, I never ever tried the trickster, but I do believe that almost any idea can be played ok in GD — just need to take some time pondering it out.

Good luck with your build!

[JKoala]

So I may assume I have to vary my build to max the damage to play properly the game. Then again, why all this “play as you want” thing?

Hmmm I think you guys are taking it so personally and you’re not getting the whole idea if what I meant.

I know some weapons must be suited to one class or another, but why aren’t there weapons suited to any playstyle?
Malfet thank you very much for such reply, I know one can’t get everything from a game, and that games are not 100% at our taste… But I can’t simply play the way I wanted…

So instead of changing items and masteries… Why wouldn’t they guide us on what to play so we can choose the style we want, instead of confusing us and make us realize your build was useless since the beggining?

[ibugsy]

So I may assume I have to vary my build to max the damage to play properly the game. Then again, why all this “play as you want” thing?

You can play as you want, nothing stops you.
It’s just that not all builds will be viable. How could they.
If someone built their character and spent one point in each skill, do you think it would work? Do you think it should?

A better approach would be for you to provide your character build using GrimCalc and then people can make suggestions on how to improve your character.

[Grimdawn_Betatest]

(…)
But equipment has the ultimate word.
(…)
I wanted to make an (…) And guess how many legendaries have these stats.
(…)
It’s impossible to get max damage or to deffend if they’re like 20 sources of damage.
(…)

Welcome to Grim Dawn.

Those points summarize well my problem with this game:

First, the multi-class system ends up reaching too quickly its limits, and I believe that the items with overpowered stats have been given to deal with this frustration. And since sharing is unlimited to some extend between the builds, all this looks to me like nothing but soft cheating. Your build is sh##ty as f#ck and you have no strategy and no idea whatsoever? No problem, just equip that OP gear and you are good to go. You can now brag around about how much you master the game. The items will compensate for everything else. Just leave town and click a bit everywhere and enjoy all the various passives your items and devotions have granted to your character.

This is the new era of ARPG. There isn’t much you can do about that. People now expect the easiest access to full satisfaction. To experiment, research, practice, fail and learn is too boring. This goes along with that new fashion of fully documented builds. Playing is now only about winning.

Since the main expectation from a large part of the fanbase appears to be nothing else but overpowered builds, giving them overpowered items over limited builds appear to be the most simple way to deal with the problem. Since the items can be shared, you have less to worry about the limits of the masteries. This may also be the reason why they are so few attributes.

But blaming this development team about the product would be a bit too quick. One has first to check to what extend that problem lies more within the demand than within the offer.

And the damage types mess appears to be connected with that problem. To have damage and resistances bonuses all over the place save the players from managing more carefully the many features of their attacks and their defenses. In a more simple and functional game system, features like +% all damage, %damage absorption (meaning “resistance to all”), massive health regeneration etc would be very exceptional. The fact that they are so common is the proof that nobody can really handle all the damages by themselves.

There is also that problem with having overpowered items all over the place, and yet nothing really fitting with your build. I know that. Kind of frustrating, isn’t it? But while I wouldn’t blame too much the developers for not being able to design 100% of the items that would fit with 100% of the builds 100% of the players would ever try playing, I still have a problem with them not being able to deliver late-game real gear options for one of the most straightforward, simple build: pure melee. Someone please name me ultimate items for a tank mainly into 2 hands physical damage, and some trauma/bleed to some extend and nothing else. How many options are there? Now compare that result with the same search for end-game occultists and nightblades. Why is there such discrepancy in the offer for those different builds?

I don’t agree with the comments regarding the build options, random stats and having fire, cold and lightning all gathered into elemental:

1. Not all builds possible are meant to be equally efficient and viable. That would be both impossible to design and boring to play.
   (not sure if this was what you really meant though)
2. Random stats is a core feature of ARPG. This adds a bit of a lottery system into the game, which increases surprise, demand, and therefore addictivity.
   What is annoying however is to have the same useless items dropping several times in the same game session and nearly none of the items that may be more related with your current builds.
3. Fire, cold and lightning attacks are too different to be merged into a generic elemental damage type.
   I do agree however that having lightning and electrocute as two completely different damages just makes no sense.

[mamba]

So I may assume I have to vary my build to max the damage to play properly the game.

yes, you should make sure your skills, devotions and items work together. This also means some odd combinations will potentially have issues.

Then again, why all this “play as you want” thing?

What difference does the damage type make for ‘play as you want’ ? You can play caster, pet build, ranged, melee (S&B, DW and 2H), but not all of them will be equally good with all damage types.

I think you guys are taking it so personally and you’re not getting the whole idea if what I meant.

not sure anyone took this personally, why would we. We just try to get you set up

I know some weapons must be suited to one class or another, but why aren’t there weapons suited to any playstyle?

there are, but not to every combination of damage types, you seem to be confusing the two

So instead of changing items and masteries… Why wouldn’t they guide us on what to play so we can choose the style we want, instead of confusing us and make us realize your build was useless since the beggining?

Not sure who is confusing you or how. Look at the mastery skills and possibly also devotions and based on these, decide what you want to be.

How exactly do you expect to be guided ? Have a manual that says ‘if you want to play caster / ranged / meleer with damage types X and Y, do this’ ?

Look at the masteries and what they offer, decide on your playstyle (caster / pet / ranged / melee), pick your two masteries and 2-4 main skills. The secondary skills will come naturally once you have done that.
Run with it and see where it leads you. Pretty much anything works in Normal / Veteran (not equally well, but I have a hard time seeing any build not able to finish unless you intentionally screw up just to prove a point)

If you decided that you want to go Shaman + NB with Lightening and Bleed despite you already identifying potential issues with it and then run into issues down the line, you can always rework your build to a damage / skill combination that works better for you.

I think you are overthinking it, less theory, more getting your hands dirty

[JKoala]

Well, this is getting to a specific point… sorry for double post but I need to have 3 post counting to post a link…

[JKoala]

I’ll give you a more accurate example…
http://grimcalc.com/build/1007-Uh5lxo

This is what I play, or what I wanted to play. An elusive auto-attacker with sustain, and a bit of AoE. I think the damage output is, or should be, enormous.

And I don’t think it’s “strange” or “doesn’t work toghether”. This isn’t “adding one point on each skill”.
It’s just a good or maybe acceptable and unique build that I won’t be able to play at its max level because equipment and game options don’t let me.
I’m not crying or complaining… I’ll just play the obvious, boring, un-original things and that’s all.

Thank you all for your answers and feedback.

[mamba]

Your build is sh##ty as f#ck and you have no strategy and no idea whatsoever? No problem, just equip that OP gear and you are good to go.

yeah, let me know how that works for you… good gear helps and yes you can compensate for a non-optimal build with it, but a shitty build cannot be saved even by the best gear

This is the new era of ARPG.

not sure that was ever really all that different, good gear always was very helpful

And the damage types mess appears to be connected with that problem. To have damage and resistances bonuses all over the place save the players from managing more carefully the many features of their attacks and their defenses.

to me the opposite is true, because there are so many types of defense, you have to manage them carefully

Same for offense, you have to focus here instead of losing yourself in the available options

In a more simple and functional game system, features like +% all damage, %damage absorption (meaning “resistance to all”), massive health regeneration etc would be very exceptional. The fact that they are so common is the proof that nobody can really handle all the damages by themselves.

they exist, but are far outnumbered by specific ones - and if you look at the builds, most do not focus on them either but use their specific types

I still have a problem with them not being able to deliver late-game real gear options for one of the most straightforward, simple build: pure melee. Someone please name me ultimate items for a tank mainly into 2 hands physical damage, and some trauma/bleed to some extend and nothing else.

How many options are there? Now compare that result with the same search for end-game occultists and nightblades. Why is there such discrepancy in the offer for those different builds?

What is an end-game Occultist ? Vitality / Chaos, Acid / Poison ? Melee, ranged, caster ?

By limiting yourself to 2H melee, you already take away a lot of options before you even start your comparison.

If I limited this to legendary weapons only and ignore other gear (with dagger / scepter for Occultist), the numbers are rather similar…

[medea_fleecestealer]

I’ll give you a more accurate example…
http://grimcalc.com/build/1007-Uh5lxo

This is what I play, or what I wanted to play. An elusive auto-attacker with sustain, and a bit of AoE. I think the damage output is, or should be, enormous.

And I don’t think it’s “strange” or “doesn’t work toghether”. This isn’t “adding one point on each skill”.
It’s just a good or maybe acceptable and unique build that I won’t be able to play at its max level because equipment and game options don’t let me.
I’m not crying or complaining… I’ll just play the obvious, boring, un-original things and that’s all.

Thank you all for your answers and feedback.

Why go all the way up Nightblade if you’re not going to take any of the skills? Maybe take Nightblade only up to L32 and then use the spare 18 points to max Stormcaller’s Pact (12) for more lightning damage and use the other 6 in Heart of the Wild for example like this.

http://grimcalc.com/build/1007-ojRn4g

Or use the spare 6 points to max out some of your other skills.

[JKoala]

This is maybe getting a bit more than a build discussion but I’ll give you my point:

18 points in Nightblade means 88 extra points in Cunning and 63 extra points in Physique. Along with 45 points in Spirit, 600 HP and 300 Energy.
Raw, only with the Talents, not counting equipment or Devotion.

Insane compared to trying to max any skill or getting any other skill from the tree.

Well maybe I’m wrong and this game is more skill based than stat based… but again, that build is unplayable at its max level. I don’t like to compare because I know having my build working is better than doing more damage than X character. But that’s not fair.
Not fair I’m getting Electrocute damage from all Shaman pieces. Not fair I get ranged weapons that favour more Demolitionists, or even Arcanists or Occultists!
I think options and equipment options should be more friendly to all kind of players and builds. And it’s easy to make it work: +1 to all skills, +1 to all X class skills (they exist and should be more frequent). +2 to all passive skills, or X class skills, +2 to active skills…
Combinations like that would be way fairer and I don’t know why they boost some specific skills or builds, making getting a Legendary more an upset than a surprise and a good feeling.

[mamba]

I’ll give you a more accurate example…
http://grimcalc.com/build/1007-Uh5lxo.

Have you tried it ? How far did you get ?

I would probably go more like this

http://grimcalc.com/build/1007-DL8tIo

Maybe switch Primal Strike for Savagery

http://grimcalc.com/build/1007-DkyT8d

If you insist on maxing both masteries for the attribute points, you can adjust some skills down. I usually max both, but not always, at the very least it is 50/32 however, never less

[JKoala]

I’ve reached a very late game, I’m playing at level 82, I’ve gotten several Legendaries, and maybe I haven’t read or researched a lot about the game, but I’ve seen videos and they way they just farm and kill everything in the map is not the “OMG I’m almost dying” feeling I have when I play Ultimate.

(I’m playing ranged weapons) That should be the problem, playing melee has advantage over playing ranged in this case, I see the point in your build, but again… should I go melee only because it’s much better?

Well although I know equipment will never serve me as I wanted… Thank you all for the help…
http://grimcalc.com/build/1007-CWqg1d
I’ll try this and see how it goes, maxed out all damage input in general and my Health/Deffense instead of putting all 50 points in Nightblade.

[TheBlackS]

I’ve reached a very late game, I’m playing at level 82, I’ve gotten several Legendaries, and maybe I haven’t read or researched a lot about the game, but I’ve seen videos and they way they just farm and kill everything in the map is not the “OMG I’m almost dying” feeling I have when I play Ultimate.

(I’m playing ranged weapons) That should be the problem, playing melee has advantage over playing ranged in this case, I see the point in your build, but again… should I go melee only because it’s much better?

Well although I know equipment will never serve me as I wanted… Thank you all for the help…
http://grimcalc.com/build/1007-CWqg1d
I’ll try this and see how it goes, maxed out all damage input in general and my Health/Deffense instead of putting all 50 points in Nightblade.

pretty badly, you have 2 autoattacks skills and 2 unique skills

also there’s plenty gear for bleed and lightning, sure, you don’t have the luxury of having lightning/bleed both on every piece, then again, the rule of this game is major focus on one thing, be it a skill or damage type

[Mirenheart]

So I’m a huge fan of Shaman, and alot of my builds tend to use it, so I thought I’d pop in and give you a build based a little on what you already have.
https://grimcalc.com/build/1007-q6UYPV

Shaman is really good at staying alive. It’s got Mogdrogen’s Pact, which has the Heart of the Wild modifier for lots of health, and it has Wendigo Totem, which is summoned, and stays in one place. It only does Vitality damage, but it also heals you when you’re near it, and for quite alot too. Using it to stay alive when you’re in melee helps alot, even if it isn’t dealing the same damage types you are.

Stormcaller’s pact is also really good. You dont get the damage reduction that Primal Bond gives you, but it gives you more Crit Damage, which is important, especially if you’re running lots of cunning. It also converts some Physical damage to Lightning, which is essentially a lightning damage bonus. Yes you won’t get alot of use from the Electrocute bonus, but not a big deal.

[mamba]

I’ve reached a very late game, I’m playing at level 82, I’ve gotten several Legendaries, and maybe I haven’t read or researched a lot about the game, but I’ve seen videos and they way they just farm and kill everything in the map is not the “OMG I’m almost dying” feeling I have when I play Ultimate.

yeah, that are some rather specific builds with great gear, for the rest it is a bit more like your experience. Those builds always complain about nerfs in the next patch

I play several builds and make them up as I go along, so far so good (no respecs, just changing emphasis as I level up so far)

(I’m playing ranged weapons) That should be the problem, playing melee has advantage over playing ranged in this case, I see the point in your build, but again… should I go melee only because it’s much better?

oh, I assumed you were melee In that case the Brute Force line makes no sense and some other stuff also should be reworked. Maybe more like this

http://grimcalc.com/build/1007-HbOryd

I’d say stick to what you like and see how that goes, probably give up on Lightening though and focus on Physical / Pierce / Bleed

[Dguffin]

Why go all the way up Nightblade if you’re not going to take any of the skills? Maybe take Nightblade only up to L32 and then use the spare 18 points to max Stormcaller’s Pact (12) for more lightning damage and use the other 6 in Heart of the Wild for example like this.

http://grimcalc.com/build/1007-ojRn4g

Or use the spare 6 points to max out some of your other skills.

Khe-khe… have you ever know what ‘exclusive skill mean’? It mean that you CANT use them both. So if you want stormcaller than you cant use Primal Bind. And there is no need to spend points in it

I like shamans, but usually play druids. If you want 2H-range trikster so you maybe should go something like this.

http://grimcalc.com/build/1007-cR8oI0

i also added devotions there

And yes. Not taking Heart of the wild looks VERY weird. Very.
Also, in next patch they will fix torrent for range so you should not ignore it.

[JKoala]

Thanks all for the ideas in the build!
I think I knew about last skills, they can’t be both, but forgot about it…

And although I appreciate the tips and effort, I keep in mind that reply telling me to just max out one source of damage.

And again, I think about Battlemage or Warden doing ridiculous amount of dmg and deffense and I, who only ficus in Bleed/Lightning, can’t get what I want, even when the Shaman himself has those kind of sources in his own tree - remember, I’m not even mixing sources of damage from two classes!
I’ve found Occultist shotguns but not for Shamans… thats sad.