Grim Dawn 2 - backlash - Let's Talk

[krell_154]

@Toxophilix

Very much agree. There are a lot of other ways they could simplify the damage types. Do we need both physical and pierce? Bleed? Do dots need to be a separate type from direct damage? What even is vitality damage? And elemental (as a combined type)?

I agree generally, though not with all the details of what you said.

For instance, Elemental as a damage type is absolutely superfluous, no need for it to be present on items. Physical and Pierce do not need to be distinct, but some kind of armor piercing mechanic could be retained.

DoTs make sense, I would say, because they change the playstyle and gearing. But elemental DoTs are unnecessary. So is Internal Trauma. Sure, the fluff might be little different than straight Physical damage, but not enough to make it truly interesting.

In my view, Grim Dawn 2 should have these damage types:

Physical
Fire
Cold
Lightning
Poison (DoT)
Bleed (DoT)
Vitality
Aether
Chaos

It would be extremely cool if each damage type would have some unique effect. LIke, Fire always engulfs the target and gives it AoE damage to neighbouring enemies, Cold always slows, Lightning always has increased crit chance, Vitality always have ADCtH, Poison always has…I don’t know what, Bleed always has progressive diminishing of the target’s OA and DA, Chaos always has chance of instant killing the target, Aether always has a chance of …I don’t know what. Or something like that.

But I know that is a pain in the ass to balance, so I do not expect Crate to do it.

[Toxophilix]

@krell_154

DoTs make sense, I would say, because they change the playstyle and gearing.

Just to be clear, I’m not saying that there shouldn’t be DoTs, just that they don’t need to have a separate damage type, in the way that, say, electrocute is separate from lightning.

[eisprinzessin]

I assume that the terms for DoT types will remain in GD 2, but:

@Zantai

As for dots being separate from flat damage for % bonuses, that’s a relic from TQ. By the time we had a moment to breathe during development and think about it, it was too ingrained in GD to rip out without significant time invested. […] For clarity’s sake, we would not do that again for a sequel.

[HmaKvla]

@krell_154

Physical
Fire
Cold
Lightning
Poison (DoT)
Bleed (DoT)
Vitality
Aether
Chaos

ditch poison keep acid, or make undead/elemental/mechanical etc poison immune, which is stupid so keep acid ditch poison.

ditch bleed add earth same reason as with poison

like Toxophilix said, have DoT from burning, electrocute etc.

i get it if you like DoT but having poisoned and bleeding enemies like undead is weird.

[tqFan]

What I found weird is ditching the absolute classic DoTs like bleed or poison because of how you feel they might affect undead. I’ll take them over “earth” or “acid” any day.

[Norzan]

@HmaKvla

i get it if you like DoT but having poisoned and bleeding enemies like undead is weird.

Undead used to be immune to bleeding, but obviously that made Arkovia and all the other undead areas basically unplayable for those builds.

[Ceno]

@krell_154

In my view, Grim Dawn 2 should have these damage types:

Physical
Fire
Cold
Lightning
Poison (DoT)
Bleed (DoT)
Vitality
Aether
Chaos

It’s not going to happen, as Z has shot it down in the past, but I’ve written - at length - about homogenizing the Elemental damage types into just…Elemental. Then letting your artists translate which “element” is being used by a certain skill, e.g., a ray of fire dealing Elemental damage, or a lightning bolt dealing Elemental damage. Not only does this narrow down the damage type spread, it’s also more future-proof, in case you wanted to do some earthy or windy elements, or any other traditional “elements,” whatever they might be.

So, for me, I’d enumerate my preferred GD2 damage types as:

• Physical/Bleed
• Elemental/whatever (Elemental Blaze is the GD1 term for the tri-element DoT)
• Acid/Poison
• Vitality/Decay
• Aether
• Chaos

An argument could be made to ditch Vitality too, as it’s got a lot of thematic overlap with Chaos.

I do, however, echo earlier sentiment that Aether and Chaos are very unique and identifying to the Grim Dawn world, and losing them would be a shame.

[Shadowpast]

@krell_154

I really, really hope they will rethink the decision to make aether and chaos damage inaccessible to players. These damage types look extremely attraactive and are thematically very cool and distinctive in comparison to other arpgs, and fit extremely well in the game lore.

If you keep them, they need to be fundamentally different from other damage types and from each other…because as of right now the only real difference, beyond thematics, are the sprites on the screen.

How the damage is delivered also creates distinction so there is that. Is that enough for a future game?

But they are unique dmg types for sure when compared to other games so I agree there.

But what will be awesome is that Crate can code everything so conversion can always show up which is

[medea_fleecestealer]

The other half of the conversation eisprinzessin linked above:

@Zantai

The story with Aether/Chaos is that they were originally intended to be damage wielded by enemies and not by players, but somewhere along the way in an effort to distinguish some classes early on, we ended up adding those damage types to mastery skills.

I think if we went back and did things all over again, we’d have stuck to those damage types being exclusive to enemies. Makes Aetherial and Chthonian powers feel more distinct than just “things players also do”.

[Ceno]

@Shadowpast

If you keep them, they need to be fundamentally different from other damage types and from each other…because as of right now the only real difference, beyond thematics, are the sprites on the screen.

It depends on what exactly it will mean to use a damage type in GD2. Taking PoE as an example, crossing a threshold for a given flat damage type applies effects based on that type, such as Chill/Freeze for Cold. If Aether and Chaos had no “DoT” effect to apply, but maybe higher general base damage, I could see that as an functional and exploitable difference for players to enjoy.

Spitballing here, and continuing to use PoE as an example, but something like Aether could do more damage to energy/mana shields as the Aether is a mental realm (and Empyrion knows, players have wanted energy/mana shields in GD for a while) whereas Chaos could do more damage to raw health, in keeping with the lore.

[kll]

@Ceno

If Aether and Chaos had no “DoT” effect to apply, but maybe higher general base damage, I could see that as an functional and exploitable difference for players to enjoy

There’s also some potential for Aether to have potent interaction with your mana, and Chaos with your health.

[Shadowpast]

@Ceno

Spitballing here, and continuing to use PoE as an example, but something like Aether could do more damage to energy/mana shields as the Aether is a mental realm (and Empyrion knows, players have wanted energy/mana shields in GD for a while) whereas Chaos could do more damage to raw health, in keeping with the lore.

I could see this happening. If there was an energy shield stat of some kind added. Chaos being like corrupted blood would be pretty cool. Fits perfectly IMO.

[Unsanity]

I’d have to agree with keeping Chaos and Aether damage for player characters to use in Grim Dawn 2. I would even go so far as to hope that there would be a ‘sympathizer’ type of class in GD2. Those partial to the ways of the green crystal would use Aether damage and those partial to the ways of the obsidian would use Chaos damage.

Taking that away is akin to Blizz taking away poison damage from the Demon Hunter in D3. Ironically, it was the poison damage that drew me to that class and it took me a while to get back into that class after the change. I know, different company and game, but same concept.

Along with the masteries and devotions (please don’t abandon them in GD2), I like the different damage types that can be used. It really sets Grim Dawn apart from all the other cookie cutter RPG’s. It shows that creativity and imagination still exist in this world.

Edit

Using Chaos and Aether damage makes sense too since humans are constantly learning and adapting. Why not fight off the Etherials and the Cthonics by using their own type of magic against them? Talk about fighting fire with fire.

[Volek]

@Unsanity

I would even go so far as to hope that there would be a ‘sympathizer’ type of class in GD2. Those partial to the ways of the green crystal would use Aether damage and those partial to the ways of the obsidian would use Chaos damage.

Would love to see this! And have the world around you react to it.

[ZeulMaster]

Since you won’t sign up for 3 masteries, are you signing up for 2 devotion systems lol?

[HmaKvla]

excuse me, i’ll take back somethings i said, crate don’t have the brass to make undead etc immune to poison and bleeding damage.

you should take some inspiration from diablo 2 and especially DCSS, it’s ok to not be able to defeat every enemy… i didn’t get it at first either …

[tqFan]

@HmaKvla

you should take some inspiration from diablo 2 and especially DCSS, it’s ok to not be able to defeat every enemy… i didn’t get it at first either …

I haven’t played Diablo 2 but needing i.e. 2nd damage type (could be on merc potentially) to destroy all enemies seems interesting to me. Like dual damage Sorc in D2. In Grim I do like that different Nemeses are slower for different damage types.

But I feel like it’s one of those hurdles majority of player do not like. Like Energy management.

[Bas]

@HmaKvla

it’s ok to not be able to defeat every enemy…

I have to disagree. If I get hard-blocked from advancing because I made a decision to go for poison damage (for example) early on I’d be pissed.
It’s fine to have a harder time against some enemies and an easier time vs others, but I don’t think it’s fun to prevent people from killing stuff just because they choose to play x instead of y. In a game where you can easily do multiple damage types and can dynamically switch between them it’s a different story, but in GD you’re pretty much tied to one (or two if you try hard) damage types.

[Ceno]

@HmaKvla

excuse me, i’ll take back somethings i said, crate don’t have the brass to make undead etc immune to poison and bleeding damage.

Except they did and then realized “oh shit, this is absolute ass to play.”

[HmaKvla]

@tqFan

But I feel like it’s one of those hurdles majority of player do not like.

i won’t disagree with that.

@Bas

If I get hard-blocked from advancing because I made a decision to go for poison damage (for example) early on I’d be pissed.

didn’t think it was necessary to specify, this would obviously not affect “key” enemies…

so then don’t have any undead enemies as story boss etc? yeah that’s why i would ditch poison and bleeding.

i mean as player i can cope with a game that has skeletons that can be killed with poison…
but i remember reading something from zantai that grim dawn might have to many damage types. and i agree and disagree !?
that’s why i would commit to either ditching said things or go with the immunity, which has to obviously account for enemies, that have to be killed to progress, to not be affected.
and if i had to make the game i would ditch bleeding and poison instead of working around enemies that are immune and some that aren’t.

but don’t listen to a DCSS(not and ARPG) player if you want to appeal to the whole ARPG player base, and that’s why i won’t disagree with tqFan… xD