Grim Dawn vs Diablo 2 "discussion"

Grim Dawn Gameplay Discussion
21

No, Diablo 2 did not achieve the ssme thing that Grim Dawn did, with fewer damage types and conversions.

Compare the number of builds in D2 and in GD. Case closed.

Oh, but those are not really different builds, amirite, because by the criteria chosen by you, they do not differ in game mechanics enough to be considered different?

Well, I disagree with your criteria. Yes, fire Forcewave is different from cold Forcewave. Those builds need different gear, different Devotions, different augments, different supporting skills…you know, all those things that make up a build.

And if the difference were purely visual, so what? This is a game, people play it because of its visuals (in part)

2 Likes
22

It achieved what I say GD achieved at the cost of conversions and item bloat: ability to reasonably pair most skills with each other.

Grim Dawn got six years of polish. D2 got about 2(?) years of being progressively more and more messed up, changing design philosophy multiple times, and about 19 years of complete neglect. No surprises here, six years of Z-polish does lend itself to more builds.

But to drive the point home, there are a few patches worth pointing out:

1.07 introduced immunities, meaning that unless you were a cold sorc, you had to pair your main skill with one with a different damage type.

1.08 removed immunity breaking.

1.09 re-allowed it, but at 1/5 effectiveness. Cold immunities were still calculated with CM in mind, except CM no longer broke immunities, making cold the least consistent damage type.

1.10 made things worse, by forcing you to pair your skill with not only a backup damage type, but also synergies to keep up with the monster life bloat.

Yes it was not pretty.

Fire FW tactician, Ele FW tactician, Cold FW tactician. What plays different? I know grimtools does, but what about GD? Maybe add lightning to the mix too.

And mind me, I like the visual differences. Allminoxy/Zantai’s nights were not sacrificed in vain after all, and my cold caster sabo was a fun project, even though I didnt realize it at the time.

It’s just that sometimes I wish for moar, or a different moar.

23

dis why you can do spam fw, coodlown fw, dot forcewave
that’s 3 different approaches/“playstyles” on the same singular skill

*i get your overall meaning, it’s why i think some of Ceno’s ideas for conduits were hilarious, because it’s significant or even fundamental skill alteration for the same skill, which would then switch things up pretty radically potentially

Blockquote

24

The devotions for sure.
Using Blizzard feels quite different than Fissure for example.
Ele seekers: different story again. Plus with Ele dmg you would opt out of -RR devotion, so wanna say:
Devotion wise it’s very different. And to me at least devotions play a bigger role.

And I didn’t read every single post here, but isnt the topic if GD or D2 is better? So when a powerful argument is being presented (number of builds), you just cannot - IMO - undermine it with “Grim Dawn got six years of polish. D2 got about 2”. Thats merely the very reason why GD - on this front at least - is indeed better than D2

1 Like
25

glad you picked that up.

26

What do you mean “what plays different” in fire vs cold FW?

Like I said, you will need different gear, different supporting skills, different devotions. That’s a significant difference - gearing and skill planning is half the game in arpgs, if not more. This is not a Dark Souls game.

Sure, there are mechanical similarities in fire and cold FW. But I don’t think that makes them essentially the same skill. For the purposes of arpg standards, they are significantly different.

27

@Boromonokli I generally agree with your statement, that less is more. Damage types were more distinct in D2. Same with monsters. Maybe their appearance and behaviour in GD is just as varied, but somehow it rarely matters in combat. That’s why Diablol series from Carbot is so popular. D2 had enough unique, memorable, even if a bit absurd elements, that it works well as a base for parody. We have our share of fun in meme corner too, but I’m not sure if all that humour is as universally received.
I’ll add, that I don’t like the concept of conversions, but I like immunities or at least high, irreducible resistances. I didn’t know they were absent on D2’s release.
I’m also sorry to inform, that if I agree with you, it means you’re on the losing side of a debate.

28

@Res Not even D2 holds a candle to D1 monster variety. Charging demons down in the caves, hiddens, monsters closing in using evasive patterns, Succubi running away, mages teleporting away, uniques that have different mechanics due to AI are all very distinct there, out of which perhaps only Blood Raven’s movement behavior and the Duriel/Claw Viper’s short range charge remained. Funny how the former isn’t mentioned in carbot’s Diablol2 series.

Ironically, in GD we have a lot of charging enemies, and gimmicks on nemesis bosses, but the homing and infinite range nature of the monster charges turning them into autohits, and in general many nemesis bosses featuring autohits or unavoidable disables turns much of it into a spreadsheet rather than piloting question. This in turn reduces perceived variety, despite the bosses and nemeses formally checking all the relevant boxes.

This is made more notable by the incredible discrepancy between normal and boss enemies: Chances are that aside from the skeleton-moss golems, rylok-gargoyles, and aetherial titan-hulks you don’t even recognize the various yellow enemies in GD, which are apparently called “champions”, and heroes are minor speedbumps that register only when they are healers / timewarped or when you miss their loot orb.

In basic D2, chances are that act-bosses and act-minibosses are easier than random encounters in the field. Most culprits are combinations of cursed/extra strong/might-fana auras, cold enchanted death explosions, and former bugged interactions with Lightning Enchanted uniques. Many cases involve the above stuck in a small entrance area of a dungeon downstairs. Can you imagine getting a jumpscare in grim dawn from a few heroes and yellows? (I admit there is Loxmere, but for all the wrong reasons)

On the topic of irreducible resistances, for a lot of classes and damage types they were completely irreducible. Cold mastery sorc I mentioned, obviously Conviction on paladin (and ONLY the paladin, no fancy runeword used on 99.9% of heroes) was there, as well as Amp and Lower resist on the necro (and ONLY the necro, no fancy charged wands and procs).

And if the enemy in question rolled the correct enchanted and overcapped it’s resistances, then Lower Resist didn’t do much in that case. (Conviction and Cold Mastery could still push the enemies into the negatives) So, like much of D2, it was a mixed bag.

1 Like