Grim Dawn vs Titan Quest: in-depth comparison

Are you referring to the emotional language or the lack of supporting argumentation? These are different points. Let us take an example that usually does not cause any controversy: “the QoL is good in GD.” How do we know that this is objective, however? You wrote “As soon as you describe something that cannot be measured, you’re subjective.” but there is no metric for QoL that can be measured. One could give many examples of specific QoL features. How many examples are required to make it convincing, though? One could compare those features with the features in other games. How many other games would be sufficient? One could refer to many posts by the players praising QoL improvements or to posts by the developers when the features were introduced. How many posts would be sufficient and is it important to include all of the links explicitly? The readability is also important, after all.

If I do not provide any supporting argumentation, then it is clearly subjective. This is why I am especially curious to learn which of the statements are unsupported in your opinion. The only aspect where it is difficult for me to find strong objective arguments is voiceovers. Sure, there were several posts in GD forums celebrating the replacement of Ulgrim’s voice in the expansion and lamenting that the original actor who voiced Kasparov passed away. (These posts were probably not migrated to the new site.) Sure, there are four comments on https://www.reddit.com/r/Grimdawn/comments/7h7uge/unplayable/ stating that the voice acting is mediocre or worse and no comment contradicting that statement. Sure, I can find many posts and youtube videos about excellent voiceovers in other games (hundreds of posts about Diablo 1/2 but also many posts about indie games such as PoE or Enderal). Here is one example: https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/soigz8/favorite_voicelines_in_poe/; check how many comments agree with that statement. I am not aware of a single post saying that the quality of voiceovers is good across the board in GD. Google search shows a single youtube video where the voiceovers in GD would be in the title and that video has zero comments. Would it be better if I mentioned all of the above in my comparison as supporting argumentation?

I provided additional supporting argumentation in response to Medea’s statement that the pace of combat is not bad in TQ. Would it be useful if I included this argumentation in the review itself?

Or is the issue that I should better separate between the objective and subjective? In about four places, I write “my personal opinion is …” stating that I am not trying to make it objective, in contrast to the rest of the review. However, these statements appear in the same paragraphs as the rest. Perhaps I need to separate them in a better way?

The question of emotional language is different. Suppose we agree that I am allowed to say “the QoL is good in GD”. Am I allowed to say “excellent” or “superb”? There is no metric or commonly accepted scale for QoL, after all. Or perhaps I can only state that “GD has that particular QoL feature while TQ does not have it”, without any attempt at a generalization? I daresay it would make for an informative but boring review.

At the end of the day, it is impossible to make the review 100 percent objective, short of making it empty. Look at the amount of emotional language scientists are using in popular articles and talks. The best I can do is to address concrete criticism thanks to your specific feedback, should you choose to provide it.

What I meant by the average is the average number of runs between two drops of the same unique or two items with the same affix. Alternatively, the average number of drops of the same unique over X consecutive runs. My claim is that the deviations are not as large in GD compared to TQ. How do I substantiate this?

Ideally, one needs to run a large number Y of trials, each trial consisting of a large number X of consecutive runs. (Alternatively, one could use the sliding window technique but these are technical details.) The scale must be large indeed but one does not actually need to know the ground truth or look up anything in GrimTools in order to assess the average and deviations. Furthermore, it is much easier to notice that something is wrong than to prove that the drop generator is perfect. In TQ, there were many posts by players farming a particular item, say stonebinder cuffs, observing complete lack of drops over many runs and multiple drops over a small number of runs. Eventually, someone meticulously recorded drops over a reasonably large number of runs (an order of 1000, IIRC) for each of the popular farming spots and presented the findings. The findings supported the observation in a consistent way: if 0 is the most popular value of drops for a run, then consistently having more runs with two drops than runs with one drop would be highly unlikely for a good drop generator. Most likely, it means that the generation is too affected by the seed. Someone has even posted a fix for the generator, which was later included in TQDefiler. There were a lot of discussions about the fix, with the consensus that it made it better but did not fix the problem completely. Later, a fix (or perhaps the same fix) was included in AE. The players continue to complain but to the best of my knowledge, nobody has created a large data sample for AE.

In early GD days, there was a post by Medierra about the improvements to the drop generator but as far as I remember, it did not include technical details. I am not aware of the same volume of complaints and published test results in GD as we had in TQ. Typically, this is an indicator that the players do not perceive it as a big problem. Admittedly, it is not the same as to mathematically prove that the drop generator is better in GD.

Mostly emotional language and statements, which are clearly opinions. No amount of arguments can turn them into facts.

It’s not objective, because it’s easy to find somebody who thinks otherwise. Hell, we’re not even sure here which features qualify as QoL, because everybody plays the game differently.

No. If somebody trusts your opinion, these links are not necessary. And If you didn’t gain that trust, links wouldn’t help much. As for me, I think I lost that trust early at “fantasy elements in GD are really uninspiring”.

I don’t think this would make a review boring. We would also learn what you considered QoL at all.

Anyway, I think you tried to provide an objective, rigid and undeniable comparison of 2 pieces of art. It’s OK to be subjective though. I like how VideoGameDunkey put it: https://youtu.be/lG2dXobAXLI

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Note that by your stated criterion we cannot objectively say that WW1 or WW2 took place because there are history deniers out there who think otherwise, and they are easy to find. A statement about a person’s age or 2+2=4 would also fail your objectivity test.
Peace and thanks for reading my post.

Those statements can be proven as false though. Or at least cannot be proven as true. Whereas “good QoL” may mean “built-in DPS meter”, “rule-based loot filter” or “view all inventory bags at once” for somebody, which GD doesn’t have.

The criterion in your previous post was based on the lack of diverging opinions rather than on the existence of proofs. By the way, one cannot prove that WW1 took place in a mathematical sense; there is just an overwhelming body of evidence supporting it. Any single piece of evidence is subjective but the critical mass makes it commonly accepted as a fact.

I do not see why people would object “DPS meter”, “received damage meter”, “rule-based loot filter” or “viewing all inventory bags at once” being QoL features. Players may subjectively argue about the relative importance of some features but not about the categorization or potential usefulness. Players may also disagree whether a proximity indicator for a nemesis is cheating but not about it being a QoL feature. For this reason, it should not be too difficult to compile a comprehensive list of features that are commonly accepted as QoL, based on a collective feedback, despite that fact that each player may prioritize the features differently. The list will never be 100 percent complete but if the feedback is of sufficiently large scale, the list will be representative. Then, if game A has all the features that game B has and more, we will be able to objectively say that game A provides better QoL. For example, TQ does not have any of the above features either. Additionally, it does not have keyboard shortcuts, a button to combine partial components together, and a lot of other stuff. It is only when each of the two games implements different features, the discussion becomes necessarily subjective. If a game ticks a high fraction of all the boxes, we can objectively talk about “excellent QoL”, even if the fraction is not 100 percent.

What the hell are you guys even discussing now lol

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I for one agree with your analysis, @LostWisdomSeeker, on these differences. TQ for aesthetics and fun, GD for play mechanics and data.

If Crate ever does a “TQ3,” (in the way GD was TQ2), i hope theyve garnered some valuable lessons in their first two renditions, which i think anyone would say were successes. It often comes down to systems, not just talent. You can have great talent at your disposal, but they have to have a pipeline network where ideas flow freely, code is malleable with new inspiration, and art mixes perfectly with data. This they may have already solved.

I do hope that Crate figures out a way to blend effects with environment, for example. If i cast a Rune of Kalastor on a patch of grass, shouldnt the grass catch on fire? If i find a burning wagon on the side of the road, shouldnt it be a pile of smoldering ashes if i come back to it a few days later?
As another example of bettering what they have, one hopes that they lead the way in getting first-person visuals inside a third-person overview. I love playing the game from third-person, but there are times when i wish i could see a view from first person, such as a stunning panorama or to ferret out whats ahead to avoid a possible ambush.

With all our criticisms and wishes, i bet we would all agree we like what we have now. Its great; now how could they make it even better? :grinning:

Well thats my worthless 2¢…

Thanks, I am coming from exactly the same angle. I also think anyone would say that both TQ and GD were success stories in multiple ways: commercially, in terms of the fan base, etc! This creates the hope that the strengths and weaknesses of each will be studied and analyzed by all future ARPG creators. A game combining the strengths of both would be so much better than each game individually is, and the strengths are complementary to a large extent.

Alas, I am not so optimistic. The pipeline and free flow of ideas is an issue for big corporations. Indie companies do not run the risk of stagnation but they face the challenge of stretching a small blanket over a huge bed. Jeff Vogel, the main person behind SpiderWeb Software has background as a writer. As a result, one can be dead sure that all SpiderWeb games have excellent story and dialogue, as well as an imaginative world. One can listen to Jeff’s talks where he explains that in order to create semi-decent visuals and audio, he needs to go out of the comfort zone and take management and business risks. Since his games are a relative commercial success already, he is not willing to do that. It does not matter that many players of his games opine in their comments that his games can become mainstream hits if the engine and esthetics are improved. It is also interesting to listen to the talks by Sven Vincke, the CEO of Larian, about how he was managing the team for the early titles by the studio, before they came out with D:OS and BG3. He was willing to take a lot of painful decisions and risks in his chase for the elusive approval rating.

The founder of Crate was a Lead Gameplay Designer for TQ (this is an exact citation), and guess where GD truly shines? I hope to be proven wrong but so far I have not seen any indication that Crate has become more interested in world detail or aesthetics for the upcoming expansion or in general. (I will not pretend that I have knowledge about their recent priorities and again, I will be happy to learn that I have missed the signs.) For every update introducing minor improvements to the world, there have been dozens of updates dedicated to further gameplay and itemization enhancements. Zantai and Medierra regularly post about the gameplay, itemization changes, and balance. Many of those posts are detailed and highly informative, props to them. Even more importantly, they engage in a discussion with the players and listen to the feedback. Have we seen a similar attitude when it comes to the maps, environments, animations, VO, and similar? It is not the lack of talent either: the constellation screen in GD is excellent and so are the buildings in Farthest Frontier.

I like your examples of visual effects (the gameplay impact is probably too much to consider at this point). There are many more. The desperate farther who is about to burn his family could be a bit less silent and docile and could have slightly less wooden and bland expression, politely waiting for the player to tell him what to do. The witch who is about to be burned could be slightly less indifferent to her fate. Aether/poison ground could be selectively destroyed or temporarily disabled or weakened. Arkovian ruins could do a bit with representing the grand Arkovian history. The avatar of Modrogen could actually have interesting things to say about the history, world, or restored shrine. There are few specific quests that make the world feel more dynamic, such as the addition of cannons to Homestead or the fact that the guards actually fight monsters that come close. Alas, these touches are few and far in between. Compare this with the attentiveness to world building in TQ. TQ introduced physics for the freaking grass, just for the sake of the world feeling more alive.

In other games, I would absolutely agree with you. In TQ, there are quite a few spots where I missed having a first-person view. However, is there a single spot in GD with a stunning panorama or a view that you would like to take in while pausing the gameplay? Just having more memorable environments would already make me happy; a first-person view would be just an icing on the cake. As for ambushes, there are very uncommon in GD in the first place (they definitely make BoC more interesting) and besides, they are on exactly the same spot each time you play through the map. This is yet another example how the world could feel more dynamic.

I didn’t read everything, but I took the time to dwell on the argument about bosses. I have to agree, TQ boss presentations were quite memorable. Typhoon, The Manticore, Hades, The Sea Serpent, Surtr. Amazing designs, amazing introductions! By comparison most bosses in GD simply plop out of a corner and start wailing at you. They feel more like super-minions than actual bosses.

I apologize for not reading everything as well, just leaving a few words.

GD is overall is a superior game, but it stands on the shoulders of TQ and one does not replace the other for me. TQ is the older clunkier brother, but it has a starkly different setting, feel and character (which aged gracefully) and GD can never really match it (meaning feel optimistic, bright and simple hearted). But it’s not meant to.

For some elusive reason, TQ classes feel a lot more different from each other compared to GD classes. Can’t point exactly why though, please don’t @ me, it is likely a subjective thing.

While GD is the best ARPG around.

I love and enjoy both.