How are you suppose to use guns?

[sir_spanksalot]

That I didn’t know. :rolleyes:

I only tried attacking her once, and I didn’t really bother learning how attack patterns, etc.

So I’ll rescind my statement on that front. But my point as a whole remains.

[malawiglenn]

Only in that domain though…Could all builds run D3’s greater rifts?

I don’t think anyone claims that D3 is the most balanced ARPG but at least all playstyles could do it. Difference in “all playstyles” and “all builds”

Grim Dawn is superior to D3 in build diversity, but not in playstyle diversity

[Durmir]

Only in that domain though…Could all builds run D3’s greater rifts?

All playstyles can, yes.
More diversity can’t be bad.

As for your replies, I’d simply say: if you need extreme expertise and super rare greens just to compete with basic piano S&B, then we agree there is really only S&B.
I think the opinion that today all playstyles are balanced is hard to defend.

[Ronin001]

D3 is a smoking pile of garbage topped with dead boar’s puke. The endgame is a power creep, it ends up being a simple math war. Don’t touch anything, just buff up numbers. So I am not saying to copy that “game”. BUT it does 1 thing right that GD can’t: it offers playstyles that all compete at a similar level. You can argue some sets (and therefore builds) are better than others, but unless you want to push the limit an extra bit, you will not notice it much (plus, with “balance” patches, the king sets change all the time). But if you want to play ranged, you can play ranged. Want to play 2H? Play a 2H. Glass cannon caster? Go for it. So why D3 can and GD can’t?

As someone coming from D3 (where I mained DH and wizard, both ranged classes), I wholeheartedly echo your sentiment here. Despite GD’s claim to build diversity, right now there seems to be only two “competitive” playstyles: facetanking and kiting w/ pets/DoT.

Personally, I don’t think that’s the best solution. I personally do think that it’s fair for ranged builds to fall-off in the deep shards faster than other characters because a deep shard run is an endurance race, not a sprint.

As if to imply that ranged builds somehow have less endurance than S&B :rolleyes: If we’re really talking endurance here, it should be about player endurance, not in-game character endurance.

If slowing down bosses is not desired, then the obvious alternative is to improve player mobility. This could be done by:

• Increasing the movespeed cap, or allow certain skills to override the cap (e.g. pneumatic burst)
• Lowering the CDs of certain mobility runes, in exchange for greater energy cost.
  These would benefit ranged/casters more than facetanking melee, and help close the gap between these playstyles.

[sir_spanksalot]

I’ll give what’s said here some thought. Those certainly are some insightful perspectives.

Though I’d like to add that I’ve never once said all playstyles are balanced. As mentioned by me several times, S&B builds are OP as heck, and I’ll never theorycraft one until it sees some well-deserved rebalancing.

[Maya]

Wait what? Anyone can kill Calandara, you just need to blink out of her blink attack and run out of sand attack. Its relatively easy, just boring AF.
Aslo you can lure her to town, the guards would kill her.

The Guards no longer kill her, they just die.

Tried it with my Pet build. Had to kill her the normal way after about 40 mins of fight.

[Ronin001]

Only in that domain though…Could all builds run D3’s greater rifts?

If you count all the builds, including those that can’t run GRs, then there’s probably as much build diversity as there is in GD.

Conversely, if you only count the builds that can run [EDIT]high SR[/EDIT], then there’s probably only as much build diversity as there is in D3

[sir_spanksalot]

Uh…I think crucible is actually very diverse ever since the DA nerf…?

I can agree with SR though.

[Ronin001]

Uh…I think crucible is actually very diverse ever since the DA nerf…?

I can agree with SR though.

Yeah I agree, it’s the SR that’s made S&B and pets really oupie.

Which is really a shame, because I had hoped that with SR having a time limit and Crucible not, it would be more of a DPS race than a survivability race. Turned out the opposite

[sir_spanksalot]

I actually think the solution here is to nerf S&B, not to buff ranged.

And this is coming for a person who’s constantly advocated for buffs.

[x1x1x1x2]

I actually think the solution here is to nerf S&B, not to buff ranged.

And this is coming for a person who’s constantly advocated for buffs.

Not a general S&B nerf. Just Octavius and Retal, cause those are really the only things that made S&B have the damage they were never supposed to have.

[Predator-X]

What is S&B?

[malawiglenn]

What is S&B?

Sword and Board = melee weapon + shield

[somnium]

The main issue I have with ranged attack builds is a lack of identity in terms of strengths. DW Melee builds are dps kings, Kitting casters are safer and more comfortable to play while dealing good damage, S&B are super safe while dealing bit less damage then DW or kitting casters.

What have ranged builds going for them? Dealing better with trash mobs when compared to melee builds? The 1-2 seconds first strike vs a boss? The ability to awkwardly kite while greatly reducing your dps when compared to actual kitting builds?

[Goober]

Not a general S&B nerf. Just Octavius and Retal, cause those are really the only things that made S&B have the damage they were never supposed to have.

So what would be the nerf? Retaliation damage only goes to 14K max?

[malawiglenn]

So what would be the nerf? Retaliation damage only goes to 14K max?

Typically gear and devotions that also buffs retal also provide extra armor and stuff. Some kind of dividing there could be “needed”

[sir_spanksalot]

The main issue I have with ranged attack builds is a lack of identity in terms of strengths. DW Melee builds are dps kings, Kitting casters are safer and more comfortable to play while dealing good damage, S&B are super safe while dealing bit less damage then DW or kitting casters.

What have ranged builds going for them? Dealing better with trash mobs when compared to melee builds? The 1-2 seconds first strike vs a boss? The ability to awkwardly kite while greatly reducing your dps when compared to actual kitting builds?

I think some DW ranged builds outdps DW melee.

For example - very few weapons can compete with dagallon’s

EDIT: As for balancing, I think retal builds should be nerfed in terms of OA, not armor. Makes sense for them to be tanky to actually dish out retaliation damage WHEN HIT. Doesn’t make sense for them to be able to dish out the pain like a classic DPS spec.

Maybe imposing a -5% OA or something on retal sets/devotions might work.

[malawiglenn]

I think some DW ranged builds outdps DW melee.

For example - very few weapons can compete with dagallon’s

EDIT: As for balancing, I think retal builds should be nerfed in terms of OA, not armor. Makes sense for them to be tanky to actually dish out retaliation damage WHEN HIT. Doesn’t make sense for them to be able to dish out the pain like a classic DPS spec.

Maybe imposing a -5% OA or something on retal sets/devotions might work.

Retaliation damage (traditional one, the one you deal when hit) is not affected by OA though

[Xeroze]

I think some DW ranged builds outdps DW melee.

For example - very few weapons can compete with dagallon’s

EDIT: As for balancing, I think retal builds should be nerfed in terms of OA, not armor. Makes sense for them to be tanky to actually dish out retaliation damage WHEN HIT. Doesn’t make sense for them to be able to dish out the pain like a classic DPS spec.

Maybe imposing a -5% OA or something on retal sets/devotions might work.

Dagallons? How has the remade set worked for them now?

[Heavyw8]

I think some DW ranged builds outdps DW melee.

For example - very few weapons can compete with dagallon’s

Then buff all other ranged weapons and nerf dagallon. I wouldn’t say ranged is fine because there is a set that’s good. It’s like saying 2h don’t have any problems, because FW with Shar’Zul and Tremor mace is good.