Idea to help Arcanist/nerf Occultist?

I was thinking about how resist reduction is so important in this game and Arcanist has none of it in it’s tree, while Occultist has access to elemental resist reduction in Curse of Frailty. How’s this for an idea…

  • Remove -% elemental resistance from Curse of Frailty

  • Give -% fire resistance and -% chaos resistance to Curse of Frailty

  • Give -% cold resistance to Frozen Core modifier

  • Give -% lightning resistance to Shattered Star modifier

My reasoning…

  1. Occultist doesn’t have any lightning (aside from storm raven) or cold damage sources, so flavor-wise keeping the fire debuff and adding chaos debuff would fit the class.

  2. Would finally give chaos damage some love. Notable downside of making Pyromancers more OP, but if any class should have access to -% chaos resistance it should be Occultist (sorry Demo).

  3. TSS is typically viewed as not one of the greatest skills, but giving it -% resistance modifiers will make it more valued.

  4. The whole Druid class combo is wonky synergy because you want to spec into cold and lightning, but you’ve got no -% resistances for it. Giving them to Arcanist makes sense while also making TSS as a skill more enticing.

What do you all think? Stupid idea or is it at least in the right direction?

Neither one of those stats can function on those modifiers.

What do you mean? Wouldn’t it just modify the TSS to apply a -% resistance debuff?

If Hellfire Mines can modify Thermite Mines by adding -% chaos resistance, why couldn’t Frozen Core and Shattered Star modify TSS in a similar way?

Uberhorrendously horrendous bad idea because:

  1. There are many mechanisms besides COF to reduce target’s resistances. Check your devotions, check your itemization.

  2. Many, many players are just using COF just because of that resistance reduction. You would break tons of player’s builds.

“A truly wise druid knows a real power of raging tempest.”

Put simply, druid has two common solution: or take prok of Rhowan’s Crown, or maxing raging tempest.

Stupid idea, but not the whole idea.

I’d say nothing should be nerf. They should be developed for making much more creative build.
[Currently, there’s no too OP or obviously outstanding from others until it make everything entirely easy.]

Grim Dawn best advantage is about synergy, creative, and polish the idea of builds. It’d be so stupid if they do something to limit the ideas and variety of builds.

There’re many way to slightly nerf, fix things up. They can do about give player new items, revise or something about items including components, relics, constellations other than only skills.

Your reasons are something represent of few knowledge, and can’t solve the whole problems. I understand when we’re making new builds and feel jealous to some classes, but if you didn’t test until you’re truly know them. You won’t know what that class really good at or real problems.

This, in and of itself, isn’t actually a good reason not to change something.

I don’t think the OP’s solution is a good one (though I do agree CoF and/or Occultist may need a change), but “lots of people use it” is not a good reason to avoid balance.

Only a skill that is already a debuff type skill can apply a debuff which reduces target resists/stats. TSS is not a debuff, it is a projectile. Mines just emit a debuff aura which does damage until you take the modifier, then it also reduces resists.

Thanks for your responses everyone!

@Kaska - The issue is that devotions and items are accessible to all classes, so they won’t fix a class problem. The fact of the matter is that Occultist has access to -% cold and lightning resistance IN THE MASTERY while having no cold sources and one lightning source, while both Shaman and Arcanist have sources of lightning and cold damage that define their class and have no access to -% cold resistance and -% lightning resistance. Notice that this is different from Reduced Target’s Elemental Resistance, which I know Wind Devil has but…

@Safarel - …this particular debuff does not solve the problem because it doesn’t stack with Rhowan’s Crown. If I’m a Druid and I want the Reduced Target’s Elemental Resistance, I have to choose between Raging Tempest and Rhowan’s Crown, while every other class can just take the Crown constellation and have equal resistance reduction to the Druid in that sense.

I get that it would ruin other builds, and while I agree with Ensgnblack when he says that’s not a good enough reason to avoid balance, I would concede that changing CoF isn’t necessary. I’m not really interested in nerfing Occultist tbh; I’m mainly concerned with giving Druid some love through the Arcanist or Shaman tree.

Chaos damage does need love though. Ask any veteran builder how he would rank the effectiveness of different damage types for builds in this game, and I’m sure chaos (as well as aether and cold) would be somewhere near the bottom of the list.

@InkOsk132 - You seem to throw out the word selfish as your main criticism of the idea. I suppose I am being selfish, in the sense that I want my idea of class abilities providing more appropriate synergies to be a reality. Again, I’m aware that tweaking CoF would ruin many builds, and again I’d be willing to concede that point.

Are there Druid TSS builds that can clear all game content? Yes. Can they do this as effectively as other builds? No. If all you care about is clearing game content, then I agree that this discussion shouldn’t happen. However, I care about balancing builds and class combos. I challenge you to find me a Druid TSS build that is comparable to other class combo caster builds, or even other class combo TSS caster builds, because I can’t find any. You acknowledge my point about -% resistances being more accessible for Druid class, but say I should be more careful. What do you mean by that?

@ASYLUM101 - Thank you. That does make sense. There is a precedent for modifiers adding debuffs to main skills though; Absolute Zero adds a 5 second slow AND -% physical resistance to OFF. Would it not be feasible to add a base slow debuff to enemies affected by TSS, and modify that slow debuff with -% cold resistance and -% lightning resistance through its modifiers?

Alternatively, I would be fine with modifying Raging Tempest and Maelstrom in the same way instead, by replacing reduced elemental target resistance with -% cold on Raging Tempest and -% lightning on Maelstrom. I know Wind Devil works by applying a damage debuff in a similar way to the mines, so this shouldn’t be too much of an issue, and Wind Devil is also an often-overlooked skill that could use some love. Would that idea be better?

Personally I’d rather just see all sources of resist reduction changed to the type that can’t reduce resistance below zero. Presto, Curse of Frailty remains good at increasing damage against resistant enemies without being so brokenly good that every build involving Occultist is automatically top-tier because of a single skill.

I get your point. Well exposed. Thanks (no sarcasm intended). Still, I don’t agree with it. As I see it, yes, some classes can’t do some things. That’s the whole point of it, isn’t it. You can’t have it all. Ah, decisions, decisions.

If I am to be honest, (this could well cost me a nerf, but well…), my cold warlock got a nice buff on last patch… an unnecessary one in my opinion. It was already OP. Now it’s even more OP.

And btw, COF got a minor nerf already. I honestly think classes are very well balanced and this speaks very well of Crate, specially with all the combinations we have available. I have seen OP everything and sucking everything too. All classes, all combos.

True actually. I’ll give you that.

i like the idea of nerfing CoF and adding -chaos resist. Occultist is half chaos damage but for some idiotic reason CoF nerfs poison and vitality, which is MASSIVE +damage for occultists of those builds, but if you go all out chaos damage you’re overlooked.

In spite of what I said earlier I’m actually really conflicted about Curse of Frailty. It’s obviously a very powerful skill, as evidenced by the fact that builds which have nothing to do with poison, vitality, chaos, etc. will pick Occultist just for that one skill, but like you said, it doesn’t do anything for Chaos which is a really weird omission. And if you nerf it, you take away the only thing Occultist has going for it.

There’s really no good way to fix it without redesigning resistance reduction as a mechanic.

Occultist is fine. There’s an issue of Bloody Pox being weak while a 12/12/12 skill just ought to be not only viable, but easily built around. Doom Bolt is out of meta too, does as much DPS as a single SoC, but you can stack two SoCs on top of each other. If anything, the thing this class could use the most is a buff to Void Touched Ammo’s skill.
Pretty much Occultist is a top tier support mastery for melee/ranged as well as a capable core caster mastery (DEE WHs and Vitality Conjurers/WHs).

Arcanist on the other hand is a top tier core caster mastery. Giving it resistance reduction is a bit too much, because any other mastery besides Soldier offer some RR that’s relevant for Arcanist. The problem I got with Arcanist is that he sucks as a melee/ranged support mastery. His flat damage potential is about 60% of Occustist’s, he got no +%attack speed, he got no soft-CC effects like fumble/impaired aim or %damage reduction debuffs, low hp, etc, the only thing that stands out is his OA potential, and even then a caster wins just as much there. The only good thing is amount of conversion. Imo at the very least Iskandra’s should give as much flat as Solael’s, and Reckless Power should give as much flat as Possession. Reckless power should give +%total speed instead of +%cast speed.

Because Thermite Mines, CoF, etc. are themselves debuffs (technically Thermite Mines is a projectile that spawns a ‘pet’ that casts a skill that applies a debuff…). Frozen Core and Shattered Star are modifiers to a projectile skill. Two totally different pieces of tech.

Flash Freeze is already a debuff, so it’s not the same precedent. For -% resistance to function, the skill itself must be a debuff. The only type of resistance debuff that you would make work on Sky Shard is a Reduced Target’s Resistance debuff.

Oh wow, I didn’t know OFF worked as a debuff as well. Thanks for clarifying.

Would the -% resistances work on Wind Devil? I had heard that skill worked as a pet that applied a debuff.

@Stupid Dragon - I agree with all of your points, except your logic for why Arcanist shouldn’t get resist reduction. The reason why is because that logic applies to other classes as well, yet they get their own -% RR. Examples…

Soldier - Physical, Bleeding, Piercing
Innate -% RR - None
Classes that offer relevant -% RR - Shaman (Bleeding), Nightblade (Piercing), Occultist (Physical, Bleeding)

Demolitionist - Physical, Fire, Lightning (little bit of Chaos/Piercing)
Innate -% RR - Fire, Lightning, Chaos
Classes that offer relevant -% RR - Occultist (Physical, Fire, Lightning), Nightblade (Piercing)

Shaman - Physical, Lightning, Bleeding, Vitality (little bit of Cold/Piercing)
Innate -% RR - Bleeding, Vitality
Classes that offer relevant -% RR - Occultist (Physical, Bleeding, Vitality), Demolitionist (Lightning), Nightblade (Cold, Piercing)

Nightblade - Physical, Piercing, Cold, Acid, Bleeding (little bit of Vitality/Chaos)
Innate -% RR - Cold, Piercing, Acid
Classes that offer relevant -% RR - Occultist (Physical, Cold, Acid, Bleeding, Vitality), Shaman (Bleeding, Vitality), Demolitionist (Chaos)

Occultist - Chaos, Vitality, Acid (little bit of Bleeding/Fire/Lightning)
Innate -% RR - Physical, Bleeding, Acid, Vitality, Fire, Cold, Lightning
Classes that offer relevant -% RR - Shaman (Bleeding, Vitality), Demolitionist (Fire, Lightning, Chaos)

Arcanist - Aether, Fire, Cold, Lightning (little bit of Chaos)
Innate -% RR - None
Classes that offer relevant -% RR - Occultist (Fire, Cold, Lightning), Demolitionist (Fire, Lightning, Chaos), Nightblade (Cold)

I’m not including the -% RR from OFF because it doesn’t apply to bosses.

I got your point, but to get somethings better doesn’t mean to trim down capability of doing other things. That’s the point of my criticism. At least witch hunter also use some of -%cold resistance from it although they’ve some in nightblade.

I’ll tell you my feeling toward these topic to make my point more obviously.

Occultist
They borrow power of 3 witchgod blah blah. So it’s end up by having 3 major type. I’ll skip the bysmiel because it is out of the topic.

Solael : Likely use as core support and some dmg by providding main source of Chaos&Vitality. If wanna buff chaos, vitality, it should be in this line. For -%chaos resistance it’d be more appropriate to this line. My suggestion is Sigil of Consumption, to avoiding stack it may apply as transmute with increasing cool down instead.

Dreeg : All about poison. So, having CoF is something that can combine occultist with other class. It’s only intersection they may cross together to get something amplify. It is ok to revise CoF but should get something back too. It is popular use because it’s only thing that fit some class and to use as a core support class. Anyway, I still have no experience about bloody pox, but as far as I play occultist. I don’t play it and also don’t see anyone get best use of it except reflection warlock. If CoF get revised, I’d like to see something in return not only trim down the capability because CoF itself is not that OP, but only choice out there.

Arcanist
Entirely strong and important class to many casters. Especially fire&aether and builds around that.

So, feeling cold TSS is weaker seems to be usual. If you want it to be better doesn’t mean to give only RR and only to the specific skills. It can be access through items and devotions. In the skills I agree that we should revise some useless into such a useful. This can do in many ways other than RR.

Lets talk about why Fire&Aether is powerful. What make it be like that.

Power of casters is limited by the peak of skills. The possibility to get better is finding more dmg source.

Fire&Aether casters is strong due to this method. They get a dagger that change the world name “Warpfire”. Making more dmg pool by convert all existing ice dmg to fire. They have 2nd devastation from Outcast’s Secret, have such a power full relic like Agrivix Malice, have rings of elemental balance to further increase more dmg. Those give them many external dmg source.

What’s about TSS druid. (I personally like Trozan, ahhh I mean I have a good feeling to him and interesting in his signature skill.)
TSS druid will be my next experiment. So I need to solve these problems too.

“You acknowledge my point about -% resistances being more accessible for Druid class, but say I should be more careful.”

-% resistance is powerful amplification. It should have more careful to assign to a skill. If the purpose is only expect to affect specific build. It should add to specific gear instead. If it is easy to access I don’t know if there’ll be any OP build again. I feel DW spellbreaker is already strong enough tho, but in caster other than melee may want it. It should careful to prevent melee goes further till it’s too OP.

It is good to make the analysis.

My advice is to add some weight to them about the usage. It’ll help us understand them more.

Example : It usually use as a core support to this, that. Minor support or core dmg for this, that etc.
[core support : provide survivability, dmg amp.
core dmg : mostly have dmg source and capable to do much more dmg.]

Only on the base Wind Devil, not its modifier skills.

Would be a little strong given that Raging Tempest already has N Reduced Resists.