Improvement to Functional Moddability

Grim Dawn General Discussion
1

First off, let me say that this is a great game, and one that provides more tools to modders than almost any other game I can think of!

However…

Tools do not equate to real, functional moddability, and the truth I’ve run into quite quickly as a new player interested in modding the game (which is backed up by the relative lack of actual mods (compare to Skyrim or Kerbal Space Program, or even The Witcher 3) people have produced), is that functionally, this game is not mod-friendly at all.

What do I mean by this?

Well, the core of the problem is that the game treats mods like other games treat cheating. It segregates modders off into their own little corner labeled “Custom Game”. It’s difficult, bordering on impossible, to import “Main Quest” characters into the custom game, meaning all my effort and work building my characters is wasted if I want to play them in a modded setup. Yes, I realize it’s possible, through one of two very irritating and convoluted means, to disable cloud saves and copy my saves to the mod’s folder, either doing so every single time I close the game, or by setting up third-party software (or using command line commands that are beyond the scope of what a typical user is prepared to do) to set up links… I don’t care. It’s too irritating to bother with.

Even worse, with Crucible out, there is, so far as I’ve discovered (I admittedly haven’t looked very hard because I’m already quite discouraged about modding in Grim Dawn at this point), no way at all to play “Custom Game” characters in the Crucible, which kind of defeats the entire purpose of the DLC.

In essence, I feel like because there are one or two elements of the game I personally would like to tweak to improve my own enjoyment of it, and am even considering creating mods myself to add to the game’s community… I am being punished, by the game (functionally speaking) taking away a DLC I paid money for, and by forcing me into doing annoying tasks for something that should either A: be completely seamlessly integrated into a self-proclaimed moddable game in the first place, or B: have a simple setup in the game’s UI to import characters back and forth, running checks to make sure nothing “illegal” or “game breaking” for the Main Quest and/or Crucible, exists on a modded character.

I feel that I’m not alone, even if nobody else is saying it. It’s proven out in this game’s very small number of actual available mods, and the tiny size of its modding community, relative to the amount of effort the devs have put into making it so easily moddable. Again, compare to KSP, which has no mod tools at all aside from the fact that Unity uses a lot of simple text files in its engine, or Bethesda games. Even games that aren’t explicitly produced for moddability like Witcher 3 totally blow away Grim Dawn in terms of numbers of mods, and I think this is why.

Is there anything that can be done to improve a mod-enabled user’s experience without completely breaking multiplayer balance/compatibility (which I assume is why the Custom Game distinction exists at all)? Discuss…

2

Comparing apples to oranges. Discuss.

3

Well that really depends on the mod now, doesn’t it? For a total conversion mod, of course.

But for, say, a tweak so that ground effect damage is reduced? That’s apples to apples of a slightly different color. There’s absolutely nothing about the character that changes, ergo no problem at all in moving the character to a different mode.

4

Not to mention, that’s one of the dumbest colloquialisms of all time. I most certainly can compare apples to oranges.

Oranges are generally more tart and flavorful than apples (a comparison).

Oranges are orange, while most apples tend toward gold, green, or red (a comparison).

Apples have a more pleasantly edible skin, and are thus easier to eat (a comparison).

5

Orange skin makes for good zest, great for making orange chicken. Let’s see your apple do that!

6

XD See, that’s the spirit! Another comparison!

7

Apart from mods working in the Crucible, I do not think you actually have any point but simply do not understand the technical impact / restriction of mods.

You cannot simply switch chars between mods or a mod and vanilla, at least not without running the risk of losing items and having a mastery that does not exist any more once you switch from one mod to a different mod or vanilla.

I don’t think making it easy to run into these kinds of issues is helping anyone. In fact GD is already kinda less restrictive than might make sense because you can switch mods with a mod-char and run into exactly these issues.
Maybe Crate thinks that if you use mods at all, you are aware of this and allow it for that reason, not sure.

8

Well, if I could use modded characters in the Crucible, my concern would be far less. I’m willing to go through the rigamarole of copying my characters over into the mod directory. I’m unwilling to lose access to the Crucible, given that from that point on, I’d only ever use Custom Games, to change an aspect or two of the game that bug me.

In general, I tend to only make cosmetic and quality of life improvements to games, not mod their fundamental aspects.

Even so, it shouldn’t be all that difficult to check during the copy. I assume somewhere in the game’s files there exists a master definition list of item affixes, along with a similar list for masteries and skills and devotions. Running a check while a character is copied from a mod to the main game, shouldn’t be a problem. Then a dialog box could pop stating “Warning, transferring this character into the Main Game may result in lost items or an unplayable character” or the like.

By modding the game, that’s a risk I as the player am accepting, and the onus is on me.

Still… my biggest complaint is actually going the other direction. The challenge is in copying main quest characters into -mods-. That’s the hard part. From what I understand, going the other direction is actually quite easy.

In any case, I do understand defensiveness about one’s favorite games, and I’m not trying to step on any toes… but there are plenty of games that have much more advanced innate mod support, such as any game with Steam Workshop to name a few hundred. And many other games that aren’t sold as being moddable, that still manage a better job of making usage of mods a user-friendly experience, just by tripping and falling into it, basically, by way of using a particular engine, and/or by extensive work by a great modding community.

And partly, I’ll admit to a bit of bristling on my part, as I ran into this issue when I found out about 150 hours in, that in order to make an adjustment to the game that in -most- other games would simply involve changing a couple of lines of text in a .ini file, I had to unpack the entire archive, edit the single-file main game map in its entirety, repack it, and then basically start the game over as if I’d just bought it, -and- lose access to a paid DLC for all characters in which I wanted that small tweak to be in effect (which is all of them).

Specifically, I just wanted to reduce the damage ticks from the top tier of floor effect damage. Finding out I had to go through all of that (and indeed, going through all of it), to make such a minor tweak, only then to discover that not only did Crucible no longer work for me, but that I’d lost my entire Stash, in -both- versions of the game… made me rather grumpy. <.<

Edit: I am aware that 150 (now 170) hours in a game like this is nothing noteworthy and makes me sound like a whiny n00b… but it’s still an element of the game that feels underdeveloped, by comparison to the fact that they went to the trouble of giving us access to creation tools and tutorials. And I’m not ragequitting or anything like that… I just… don’t use mods, and put up with a couple of aspects of the game I dislike, in favor of having access to all the rest as it’s intended to work. That is, I believe, the same decison -most- of the player base (now a million strong!) has made, and why a game with a million customers, and mod tools included in the tin, has… what… 10 up to date mods? Maybe 20?

9

Still… my biggest complaint is actually going the other direction. The challenge is in copying main quest characters into -mods-. That’s the hard part.

It’s really not.

http://www.grimdawn.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37906

10

I tried that, though thanks for posting it! And yes, I had access to the characters… but not my stash.

Basically all I wanted to do was make one small tweak, and then continue playing as if nothing had happened. Strangely enough, it’s because of the game’s mod support mechanism, that it’s functionally impossible.

Ironically, if the game didn’t have the mod support it does (within the engine anyway, the tools are still great!), I’d be more able to mod it than I currently am, because I could just repackage the game, and play, with the game none the wiser that anything had changed.

11

you could check for missing definitions and reject loading the char or warn the user and let him decide based on the severity (missing skill, stop, missing item or affix, let the user decide).

Not sure wrt Crucible though, not sure how that was done / why it does not allow modded chars

Still… my biggest complaint is actually going the other direction. The challenge is in copying main quest characters into -mods-. That’s the hard part. From what I understand, going the other direction is actually quite easy.

not sure where you got that impression, to me they are both exactly the same, copy the char and set / reset the mod-flag

In any case, I do understand defensiveness about one’s favorite games, and I’m not trying to step on any toes… but there are plenty of games that have much more advanced innate mod support, such as any game with Steam Workshop to name a few hundred.

having steam mod support does not make a game more moddable it might make it easier to get mods.

As to stepping on toes, you did not step on mine, it just felt like you were simply ignoring the risks / complications of using different mods with the same char.

Finding out I had to go through all of that (and indeed, going through all of it), to make such a minor tweak, only then to discover that not only did Crucible no longer work for me, but that I’d lost my entire Stash, in -both- versions of the game… made me rather grumpy. <.<

your stash is not lost, but your mod has a separate stash, another thing you can transfer with tools :wink:

I’m not ragequitting or anything like that… I just… don’t use mods, and put up with a couple of aspects of the game I dislike, in favor of having access to all the rest as it’s intended to work. That is, I believe, the same decison -most- of the player base (now a million strong!) has made, and why a game with a million customers, and mod tools included in the tin, has… what… 10 up to date mods? Maybe 20?

Most players never use mods, let alone create them, that is pretty much true all the time :wink:

I agree that GD does not lend itself to tiny tweak type mods, which frequently is the majority of mods for a game, thereby reducing the number of mods drastically.

12

not true, you can still do exactly that (repackage the game) and replace the original files in the game dir instead of creating a separate mod…

13

A lot of points in this thread, a few I feel like commenting on.

  1. The save game issue: it took me awhile to make this a standard approach, but creating a new toon in Crucible, symlinking that save from “main” to “user” and then playing in mods/vanilla/crucible and having access to the same vanilla stash has become standard practice for me with all new toons. Sure it is a hurdle, but very minor.

  2. Lack of Crucible compatibility with mods: I agree completely. Crucible is designed like a hard-coded mod and this is not what anybody wanted.

  3. Lack of mods period: This is where I get passionate and I also share your frustration, but by no means do I blame the modders. I can blame the devs a little bit, as I suspect that Steam Workshop would greatly enhance the number of players that try out mods, but my main gripe right now is the complete lack of a community of players that play the mods. Getting 1 to 2 comments on a mod after the days/weeks/months spent working on it is just de-motivating. Unless we can get more people playing and actively pushing the modders through feedback to continue, I fear this is just going to get worse.

Final issue: modding a game under development has proven to be more of headache than it is worth. A lot of us are waiting for xpac just because we know that anything we do now will have to be redone once the xpac hits. However, given the recent time estimate on xpac, not sure even I can hold off that long before the modding itch starts to scratch again.

The key thing to remember is modding is fun for those of us that do it. If you are not having fun, then it will never lead to anything, as it is very often a life-sucking-pit-of-despair, and if you get nothing positive from the modding experience, I guess you should find something else to do. However, the bigger the hurdle, the greater the satisfaction upon success. So choose wisely, if you have the time to invest, it is worth it imo.

14

I’ll have to look into this… I haven’t seen any mention of it on the forums in what searching I’ve done, but if there’s a workaround, that helps a lot.

Your third point is exactly what I’m trying to point out… as the game stands right now, there is a significant barrier to players playing mods, and to modders creating minor mods. This also acts as a secondary barrier to entry to players -learning- to mod, since the usual way to learn, is by starting with minor tweak mods, and then progressing.

Saying, “Oh, it’s not a problem because you can follow this complicated nine step process involving command line usage and third party software, and just do that for every single character,” is not good. That’s enabling the problem, not solving the problem.

What I’m saying with things like Steam Workshop, is that moddability has two factors. One is whether or not the game itself is moddable, of course… whether players have access, or can hack their way into gaining access to (as a community) the game’s core files. Grim Dawn gets an A- for this (because you do have to unpack then repack the files, and the very most moddable games don’t require this step).

The other facet is the support of -using- mods within the game. Grim Dawn gets a D- for that. Most players probably try out a mod, go, “Oh, damn, I can’t use my real characters? Meh,” and then uninstall the mod and never look at it again.

That’s exactly what I did, and I am a modder. A minor player in the Kerbal Space Program modding community which -is- vast and active, second probably only to Fallout Bethesda Scrolls: Pick Your Color Scheme.

I’m not whining here that I personally can’t figure out how to use mods.

I’m saying, for the devs to note (admittedly I probably started this in the wrong sub-forum <.< ), that all the effort and work they’ve put in to making the game moddable (which to me seems to indicate that they intend for it to -be- moddable) is for naught, and I think I know why, and it’s because the game engine itself includes very poor mod support, with no built-in way of transferring characters, no in-game mod download and management system that I’ve seen, -and- the need to unpack and recompile the game in order to do any modding at all.

At a certain point, if you stack up enough barriers to entry for modding, best intentions aside, you end up with an anemic modding community with few active modders, and just as few active mod-players. And that’s exactly what I see here.

True, and believe me, that’s been an enormous headache in KSP as well. The thing is, for a lot of games, -especially- from indie studios, the development cycle has become basically a perpetual thing. The lines between Alpha, Beta, Early Access, Release, Updates, and DLCs are increasingly blurry, with “1.0” kind of almost an arbitrary thing, more signifying, “We want to start making real money now” than “We think the game is truly polished and ready now,” in my experience. Note that I’m not saying that this shift is -bad-… in many ways it’s amazing, and has produced games that are influenced by their own communities to become exactly what their players actually want to play. But it -does- make modding… problematic.

KSP, for example, was considered “feature complete” with 1.0, but Squad has basically admitted at this point that it wasn’t, not really, that the -real- 1.0 is actually 1.2, which was an update actually even bigger than 1.0, and broke way more mods (almost all of them in fact due to some fundamental rearranging in how files are managed and procedures called, in parallel to an update from Unity 3 to Unity 4). So… I do get that that’s a contributing factor, but a really healthy, motivated modding community doesn’t care. It plugs on even knowing what’s coming. GD doesn’t have that, and I think it’s because there are three stacked barriers to entry:

1: Mods are somewhat difficult to make because the game files are hidden behind engine-specific compression (not uncommon, but since many games don’t do that, it’s worth mentioning. Kudos to Crate for providing the tools to work around this themselves.)
2: Mods are somewhat difficult to install and play because there is no mod-manager, either third-party or in-engine, and the workarounds to get characters to work wherever you want in the case of minor tweak mods, are comlpex and involve third party software and/or command line usage, which is scary to many players.
3: Modding is somewhat difficult to learn, because exactly the kind of mods that modders tend to cut their teeth on, are the ones that are least rewarding to implement, behind exactly the same barriers to entry as the big total conversion mods.

15

Well it was, but… it was my fault that it was. At some point, as I kept loading the game to check to see if my mod characters now had access to my stash, it copied a backup, or I deleted a file I shouldn’t have, or… something.

In any case, I’m a very experienced computer user, with modest programming experience, significant diagnostic experience, and moderate modding experience in other games, so if -I- ran into significant enough headaches implementing a simple tweak mod the way I wanted to, to make me just throw my hands in the air and not bother with mods anymore… I guarantee -most- other players are doing the same.

16

That might also be because of what you picked as your tweak mod. There are many other small tweaks that are a lot easier and actually are small tweaks. You just happened to pick something which actually is not such a small tweak after all without realizing it.

Not saying you do not have some valid points, to me mostly about Steam mod support / accessability / using the same char.
Decompiling and compiling is easy enough that it is not really a barrier to entry and the mod user does not have to worry about it anyway.

17

This is the video I used to figure it out. I installed the SymLink program he mentions and use it to avoid windows cmd line. I start the toon in Crucible just to loot the corpse and then quit to menu and make the symlink. Then I pick the mod I wanted to play the toon in. If my toon does not have mastery changes, then I can re-enter Crucible and play it. But most of the time, I have a mastery from a mod and the save data gets messed up if you take a toon from a mod and place it in vanilla or a different mod when there are mastery changes. You say it is an engine limitation, well, that is kinda always technically true, but it is not advised to blindly move toons in and out of different mods and vanilla, the save data will not survive. The point is that it is technically possible, via manipulation in windows, to do it, so if you know what you are doing, you are not restricted completely, you just have to consciously do it. To avoid making errors later, you typically want to name your toons in some way that you know what mod(s) that toon can load into.

Not imo. As long as the thread retains good intentions, I think the subject is important enough to leave here. With an after summer xpac release, maybe we have a window to increase the mod playerbase during the interim.

And, oh yeah, is this not the mod you are looking for:

http://www.grimdawn.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47066