It feels like the days of rinse and repeat farming have past

[Retal_Abuser]

@Tovio

Personally, for me, the most soul-crushing activity in games has always been grinding for equipment with an extremely low drop rate. And while I understand why this mechanic is present in subscription-based MMORPGs — to extract more money from players — I don’t understand why this mechanic is present in single-player games. There are absolutely no arguments that would justify adding such casino mechanics to the game other than to simply waste the player’s time. Unfortunately, after reading the thread, I came to the conclusion that many people have developed Stockholm Syndrome towards such mechanics, justifying their existence with inane rationalizations.

There is also something to be said about the dopamine hit of finally getting that very rare thing you’ve coveted.
Zantai

One of the most popular myths. The idea is that the rarer the item, the more dopamine it will bring when the player is lucky enough to obtain it. In reality, the player is happy that the torment is finally over and that they no longer need to endlessly farm.

“I have reminded the reader that every state of welfare, every feeling of satisfaction, is negative in its character; that is to say, it consists in freedom from pain, which is the positive element of existence. It follows, therefore, that the happiness of any given life is to be measured, not by its joys and pleasures, but by the extent to which it has been free from suffering — from positive evil.”

I quote that partly in jest, but it does ring a bell with the sense of relief given when you finally get the drop. Are we actually enjoying this, or are we just relieved it’s over?
SageOceiros

I second this. I used to play Tactics Ogre a lot, where a modder made all “rare items” have a 100% drop chance on “heroes” and “bosses” within optional grindy deeply-levelled dungeons (and fixed a ton of game imbalances), and imo it made the game so much more fun (the mod is called One Vision btw and it gave the ancient game a 2nd life).

Planning for builds felt more meaningful as you didn’t have to get stuck and frustrated blindly praying for a decent affix combination or 1 more piece of your set to finally drop after days of farming, for example. I knew where to go, and where to go after that.
ToniCogin

Again, as for the year of 2025, there is absolutely ZERO justification for adding items with low drop rates for a single player game. Killing Terrnox, Valaxteria and Krieg for 300 times is not fun. It’s time consuming, couses burn out and completely goes against the very idea of the game, in which the most fun lies in forming and min-maxing your build. The game doesn’t punish you for making a bad build, it just wastes your time by putting an invisible wall of chance behind your item. Btw, in general, gamers have much less free time now than they did in the 90s and 2000s.

Sorry for necro.

Wow well said I totally agree with you with everything 100%

[banana_peel]

Agree with your points. You do need to introduce some structured challenge in the game and a progressive reward system to keep players occupied. But the framework where everything is tied to rince-repeet the same content for a small chance of a big reward, imo, is just not competitive in today’s market of entertainment. And it can’t be compared to “the same content” in multiplayer games cause in there other people are your content and they are never the same.

I think there’s a big factor of gambling evolution in gaming. D2 was innovative in introducing this gambling (your time for loot) mechanic. But right now there’s SO much gambling every which way you look, from mobile and gacha to CS and FIFA, that these dopamine hits from finally dropping a big item arent as prominent and lucrative as they were 20 years ago.

I would really like to know the demographics of aRPGs compared to other genres. How many teens and people in early 20s even play them now?

[Spraynerb]

Agreed too. Hoping that mechanics in the new FOA DLC will alleviate some of this regarding random drop items. I just spent an inordinate amount of time farming the theoretically relatively common blue item Mythical Blightshard Amulet and I can state emphatically that grinding for this item was the definition of rinse/repeat blah blah tedium. From a fresh start my character killed over 230000 monsters before getting this thing to finally drop. I cannot imagine attempting to farm for a perfect double rare MI given the reality of the situation here with a blue (!!!) item.

Not sure if Krieg set, Dark One set, Lokarr set, and the like will see improvement specifically with new DLC but it would be nice…

[Bas]

Try getting your last blueprint I’ve basically given up on it.

@banana_peel

I would really like to know the demographics of aRPGs compared to other genres. How many teens and people in early 20s even play them now?

Somehow it feels like it’s mostly a bit older people, but I don’t really know of course.

[Gnomish_Inquisition]

@Bas

Try getting your last blueprint

skill issue, “just play for 5 years” Welcome to the Grim Dawn Church of RNGesus - #56 by Gnomish_Inquisition
ez, gg

good thing FoA wont add any new blueprints to collect

[Bas]

I did play that long (on and off), but obviously not good enough. Clearly a skill issue.

Stupid thing is, it can lock you out of playing some skills on end-game builds if you’re unlucky.

[Tovio]

But imagine how much dopamine your brain will produce when that blueprint finally drops! Clearly, it’s an essential part of every ARPG…

I wasn’t joking about Stockholm Syndrome btw. There are players who sincerely believe that removing casino-like mechanics from the game will somehow “kill the game”, since it’s an “integral part of the genre.”

[Gnomish_Inquisition]

i think/for me atleast, as i mentioned in my earlier post, there is a difference between absurd low drop rates, vs being so generous stuff feels worthless. I never liked ex diablo 2 drop rates, or the sense of impression i get watching PoE built around trading/tiny drop rates because “hey just trade for it”
But even to someone that dislikes decimal drops what others love about ex d2, something being 100% doesn’t necessarily feel “good” either. As unpopular opinion ex i kinda feel like boss MIs being 100% now kinda made them less awesome (not including affix chasing), and suggested the name/rarity classification be changed to match the new non-rarity

and even if both PoE and D2 has lots of players and fans, i dont’ think majority people actually prefer/like decimal drop rates either, but still prefer some degree of rng/“sense of luck win”/feeling earned for your efforts vs freebies.
What’s the perfect or better balance is then a good question.
And the stockholm syndrome base is minority, and Crate probably feels/knows this and is why they have kept making GD increasingly generous over time

[Norzan]

I don’t want stuff to have dismal drop rates, but i also don’t want stuff to rain from the sky.

[Gnomish_Inquisition]

indeed, and i think the current blueprint situation is probably more like a collateral effect of that specific mechanic/drop interaction, and not Z refusing to be generous “in this 1 area”, when so many other aspects has seen either specific increases or system changes to accommodate the "respect my time"mindset, - and more yet to come in FoA
(while still trying to attempt some balance between sense of obtaining/not losing complete interest from getting handed everything and every item for free at will and quit after 5mins being complete, eg merchant shop boring/complaint)

[Tovio]

As unpopular opinion ex i kinda feel like boss MIs being 100% now kinda made them less awesome

I believe that the maximum number of runs for farming any item in the game shouldn’t exceed 5. Any higher and it starts to become monotonous. Thus, a 40% drop chance should be considered the minimum.

And the stockholm syndrome base is minority, and Crate probably feels/knows this and is why they have kept making GD increasingly generous over time

I hope devs use this calculator: https://dropchance.app/
REALLY puts into perspective that even a 10% drop rate is quite time consuming (22 runs on average).

[Zantai]

@Tovio

I believe that the maximum number of runs for farming any item in the game shouldn’t exceed 5. Any higher and it starts to become monotonous. Thus, a 40% drop chance should be considered the minimum.

I fundamentally disagree. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

@Gnomish_Inquisition

indeed, and i think the current blueprint situation is probably more like a collateral effect of that specific mechanic/drop interaction, and not Z refusing to be generous “in this 1 area”, when so many other aspects has seen either specific increases or system changes to accommodate the "respect my time"mindset, - and more yet to come in FoA
(while still trying to attempt some balance between sense of obtaining/not losing complete interest from getting handed everything and every item for free at will and quit after 5mins being complete, eg merchant shop boring/complaint)

Blueprints are a worst case scenario of a loot system not built to handle them. The bad luck protection in place is essentially a bandaid solution, not something I am proud of or would want to repeat in a sequel.

[Norzan]

Taking at most five runs everytime to get an item, at that point just create a npc and let me buy the item directly if it’s gonna take that little work.

[Tovio]

@Zantai

I fundamentally disagree. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

May I ask the reason why?

[Zantai]

I already went into it in this thread.

40% drop rate is not remotely satisfying. It’s a drop rate that basically ensures zero satisfaction when you get it, but almost guarantees frustration when the almost coin flip does not go in your favor.

It’s similar to why Crit Chance can’t go too high before your brain goes from “awesome! I got a crit” to “bullshit, why didn’t I crit?”

[Zantai]

@Tovio

One of the most popular myths. The idea is that the rarer the item, the more dopamine it will bring when the player is lucky enough to obtain it. In reality, the player is happy that the torment is finally over and that they no longer need to endlessly farm.

“I have reminded the reader that every state of welfare, every feeling of satisfaction, is negative in its character; that is to say, it consists in freedom from pain, which is the positive element of existence. It follows, therefore, that the happiness of any given life is to be measured, not by its joys and pleasures, but by the extent to which it has been free from suffering — from positive evil.”

I quote that partly in jest, but it does ring a bell with the sense of relief given when you finally get the drop. Are we actually enjoying this, or are we just relieved it’s over?
SageOceiros

This is a fundamentally flawed view of how loot games function.

If hitting the jackpot in gambling was the experience of being free from suffering, everybody would stand up from the slot machine after their single win, relieved that they got what they needed out of it.

While looting is not exactly the same as gambling, it does tug on the same strings. And there is no denying it can be addicting to people if it’s set up with manipulation and microtransactions in mind.

[Volek]

@Tovio

Btw, in general, gamers have much less free time now than they did in the 90s and 2000s

Source? I don’t think that’s true. It may seem so because gamers today are overwhelmed by the sheer amount of game releases, many of which are fomo live services, and there’s always the next trendy game begging for your attention. Not to mention all the other distractions. Maybe gamers would have more time to play if they spend less time on tiktok. It’s a choice.
I don’t think people in general have more or less free time than in the 90s or 2000s, they just feel busier because there are too many choices.

But I can only speak for myself, I certainly have much more time to play now than 25 years ago when I worked/partied my ass off.

@Tovio

I believe that the maximum number of runs for farming any item in the game shouldn’t exceed 5. Any higher and it starts to become monotonous. Thus, a 40% drop chance should be considered the minimum.

Why only 40%? 80% sounds better, saves a lot of time that gamers could spend on tiktok instead

Very high droprates seem very boring to me. If you get everything you want for a build within minutes, the game is reduced to mostly theorycrafting and testing. Which sounds extremely boring to me. I say: Let the farmers farm. People who don’t enjoy it can use GDstash, or if they don’t like cheating they can trade with other likeminded players.

[Norzan]

@Tovio

Btw, in general, gamers have much less free time now than they did in the 90s and 2000s.

People have had busy lives for literal centuries, it’s not a recent thing.

[Bas]

@Tovio

REALLY puts into perspective that even a 10% drop rate is quite time consuming (22 runs on average).

This doesn’t make sense. It’s also not what that app is saying. It says if you have 10% drop chance there’s 90% chance that with 22 runs you will get at least one of them (might be more). On average it’s still 10 runs, because that’s what 10% means.

Edit:
Or in other words, that site is telling you that after 22 runs there’s a 10% chance you still haven’t got one. The same chance as getting one on the first try.

[Zantai]

I will add, the other problem with the logic going around in this thread is that in a game like Grim Dawn, every attempt at loot is not a binary result. When the boss dies, maybe the thing you were hoping for does not drop, but something else definitely did. Unlike pulling the slot machine lever, there is always a reward.

Maybe once you get to point where you are seeking the 999th item out of 1000 possibilities and it just won’t drop, that is definitely a problem and frustrating, but vast majority of players do not reach this scenario.