They could just as easily make SR set’s last piece require only 40, so still not much of an argument either way.
In the end all numbers are Arbitrary. The only difference is that one was set by the devs while the other was set by the players.
Whether SR is balanced upto 40, 60, 70, 80, 100, over 9000, it is all the same since numbers can be tweaked as desired for it.
That´s not true or better: Exaggerated. There is exactly 1 Boss who can do that: Grava´Thul. You won´t meet any other enemy with this ability in Boss chunks.
If you play the other 3 chunks somewhat “safe” (not pulling every mob group on sight, use terrain, withdraw, if it is too much, etc.) there won´t be many problems there.
No? The reward is your personal satisfaction or, if you want to post it here, some “E-Fame”.
There don´t have to be other rewards like items. Crate could make some achievements (80, 90, 100), but more is not necessary imho.
The thrill of challenge is good, but why it shouldnt be accompanied with rewards? Why dont throw 10 Ugdenblooms, 20 Seals of binding and 50 Aether shards on player, that reached SR90, for example? Those could be farmed without much risk, but it takes time. So why dont reward a tryharder with them?
Risk and reward should come side by side - that’s what i believe in. When risk doesnt bring a reward at all, i find it frustrating, and i think many players agree with me.
And instead of tryharding SR, i’m forced to spend a large portion of my time farming those items - ugdenblooms, aether shards, seals of binding, etc. Those almost dont drop in crucible/SR, yet every build requires tons of them… Do you think it’s fair and enjoable to steamroll bloodsworn on 100-th time to get shitty seal just because they dont drop in endgame?
I strongly disagree on that.
Just because you’re allowed to skip some packs, you think it’s fair to have some enemies, who literally say “fuck you” to most builds? And those arent even shown on map, unlike nemesises…
You might think that…but let´s have a look:
What´s the thrill of Killing Superbosses like Mogdrogen, Ravager and Callagadra? Because of the unique items? I don´t think so. It´s about the challenge, not about the reward (besides achievement collectors).
Well, SR is a bit different. For superboss, you can make a dedicated build and trivialize it. You cant do the same for SR. And yes, i still believe, that killing challenging bosses should be rewarded. Ravager and Callagadra do reward you with good items for certain builds.
To mediate the issue with healers in SR and crucible, why not change the 80% health restored on their skills to something in the vein of Wendigo totem, with a lower % heal and a large amount of flat healing? It would still be a full heal on squishier heroes and mobs, but would moderate the effect on nemeses and other tough targets, with less punishment because you missed that one myrmidon in a pile of enemies.
I can see all the points about the “unfairness” of the endgame, but it is meant to be difficult. I can advocate the position that it can randomly get superhard for some builds. The point of original discussion is that endgame exists in a separate set of rules compared to general (and much more extensive) content. What I mean by that is that many, MANY mechanics that are straight useful in normal game become useless shit in “endgame”, like CC, life reduction, positioning, etc. As a side of enabling those in endgame would be the increase of “fairness” of encounters, sure, but the original notion is that the game should be not hypocritical about what it offers to players.
Life reduction is always shit, even for early game. Positioning is always good, even for endgame.
Sure, but to what end?
By request. Originally SR 75 waystones didn’t exist. Now people are clamoring for SR 90 waystones. Where you’re capable of starting doesn’t have an impact on what you’re capable of handling.
This is more or less the current situation. Loot technically stops somewhere between 83 and 86 IIRC, but the 75-76 side of things is most efficient for “most builds.” But if every build could do 75-76, what’s the point of grinding for loot in the first place?
Not in current patch (to my knowledge) but my overall record is 121 and I know someone that has hit 130. Granted, my current record in the current patch is in the mid-eighties.
Where people are pushing their builds to is entirely arbitrary, despite your claims otherwise, and it’s not a “worry” if some go further than others.
Feel free to browse the forums in the time period shortly after FG’s release.
This all sounds fair to me. If you’re playing an RNG gamemode and are unprepared for RNG difficulty, that’s your problem, not the game’s.
Just focus them.
Fun, this bizarre notion that some of us still play video games for.
To the same end it is atm.
Point being that the argument doesn’t hold water. There is no reason why anything above SR60 needs to be unfair, especially when you have waystones upto 75 and loot scaling for even more.
I was under the impression that SR 75 waystones existed since release. Which patch were they added in?
And I am arguing that it should have an impact, not whether it does or does not.
Then I would prefer waystones upto 85 tbh.
What is the point for grinding for loot if every build can handle SR upto 60? Same deal here.
Or in other words, if builds that can do SR upto 60 atm ended up being capable of SR 75-76, it isn’t suddenly going to make farming for stuff exponentially easier or faster.
I have given reason to support my claim. What is yours to counter it other than that you believe otherwise?
And if people going further is not the reason what is the problem with making higher shards a bit easier or fair to get to?
I don’t remember seeing anything of the sort.
I don’t think you get his Argument. The Problem is similiar to the Stash Argument. There is never enough, and everytime they would try to balance stuff out, like let’s say SR75+ people would come in this forum complain how unfair SR90+ is and also suggest / wish / keep nagging about another waystone.
I might not sound like that often in this Forum, because most things Crate do, they do it right IMHO. However there are some Aspect where i atleast get different Opinions and such. But this is one of the Issue where not the Game or Crate is at fault, but the Community you keep nagging and whining about that.
You can’t expect that an RNG Endless-Mode is in some sense Fair and Balanced, simply because it’s rng plus culmative gets harder, and you can’t fix that issue! The try to attempt to do such a thing will either ends in shifting the issue like from SR75+ to SR90+ or whatever, OR does kill the Concept of the Mode, and we get Crucible 2.0 instead.
I get his argument, doesn’t mean that I agree with it.
And once the loot stops scaling, the rest will just be for bragging rights or feeling of accomplishment, and hence I see no reason to believe that people will still keep nagging about difficulty past that point. If GD’s history has already proven me wrong on that, I am very much curious to see where, where and how.
And no one is saying anyone is at fault. The people “nagging and whining” would like to see a change and are voicing their thoughts. Why is that a bad thing?
Would you rather have everyone nod their heads in unison to everything the Devs do, without ever voicing their concerns, opinions or any kind of feedback in general?
Problem with the last paragraph is that you are making a strawman argument. No one i saying that SR shouldn’t be hard, just that atleast upto SR75 shouldn’t be unfair instead of the SR60 that Zantai prefers. Randomness is fine, being difficult is fine, but that can be done without making players feel like it all comes down to a coin toss.
And the whole “Give them an Inch and they will demand a Mile” argument sounds nothing more than over reacting and a slippery slope fallacy in full effect to me.
I’d say SR is very unfair before SR 60 too. For example, one arena appearing for ~SR46-59 makes all bosses charge at you immediately, and you have no chance to pull them one by one, or even 2 by the time. It’s MUCH easier to fight bosses one by one at SR65, that fight them all simultaneously at SR 50. Since there is a very good chance that arena appear at least once per 5 shards, it literally serves as a “gear-check”. A build, that cant reach SR60 due to that, can still beat SR65… That’s ridiculously unfair, to be honest.
They should either make ALL arenas so you can pull bosses one by one, or make it so enemies would charge at you instantly on ALL arenas (just like in Crucible). A dedidated “arena of death” shouldnt exist.
Yeah, I can agree with that. Personally, I wouldn’t mind the smaller arenas shifted to higher shards instead or changed a bit to allow more room for kiting/puling etc.
Because i share the viewpoint, that there is Legit Critique / Suggestion, and absolute Nonsense. This Situation would be like (as a fictive example) that Dark Souls, due some hardcore People can do much of the Content naked, devs get Feedback / Complains that they should balance the whole difficulty out, so also mediocre and bad players are able to achieve that as well… while this whole Naked-Run is simply a community-challenge for certain Peoples.
We arguing here about an Goal set by the Community. Not by the Devs, but the Community, and now a portion of people complain that this extra-challenge-goal set by the community isn’t balanced out for everyone. And that’s bs nonlegit critique.
So you want to tell me, that an !!RNG !! endless Mode should punish everyone who is lucky or have enough piloting skills / a proper Build, because not everyone can’t handle that? Yikes, but this is one of this Non-Sense Argument which is why i pointed out so many times you can’t fix it without killing the concept of it.
And that’s the Reason why i find this whole Argumentation so utter BS. Because i’ve to point out yet again it’s an RNG MODE… the issue here isn’t the Mode per se, but rather People who don’t get the mode and expected something entirely different, similiar to crucible. Why is that so hard to understand. This whole Situation is like someone who buy Arma and than complain it’s not an Arcade Shooter but an Military Sim.
Second: What Zantai prefer? He is one of the Devs, which had this mode in mind and which vision is based on! Are we’ve come that far in this community with our entitlement, that we rather force up a community goal down the throats of the Devs? Well than it’s not a suprise that we have from time to time this utterly dumb people complain about mods, tools and translation breaking with an update and acting like it’s the devs job to develope the patches in that way so no Mods break anymore. Yikes!!!
Is it tho? Remember the day when Auto-Component-Looting was announced for an hotfix, because of Grim Internals, and than folks start to pop out and keep naggin about “please bring healthbars”, “please bring Day/Nightcycle Controls”, “please bring searchbars” etc… even this “moar stash” recently have begone popping out more often due the Argument is “well, they said auto-component-loot won’t coming too and now we have it?”
So far the community in this past Months / Years have never given me trust in them to not demanding a mile after giving them an inch, but you call that over-reacting? Oh boy.
Dark Souls and Grim Dawn are two very different games, so I won’t be commenting on that. But just because you share that view point and think that this is “absolute nonsense” doesn’t make you right. And besides, what you think is kind of irrelevant anyways since the feedback is directed at the devs. At the end of the day the devs are the ones who needs to be convinced if a change is to happen, not you or me or any of the players.
All goals are set by the community. Doesn’t make it bs or any less legit. Besides, the devs are making the game for the same community to play right? So I don’t see the problem with listening to said community.
I am going to need some explanation to how you reached the conclusion that making SR “easier” would punish better players or builds. The loot still stops scaling at a particular point. How is anyone getting punished if more people are able to reach that point?
I will quote myself again:
“Randomness is fine, being difficult is fine, but that can be done without making players feel like it all comes down to a coin toss.”
Not everyone is a masochist and should not be shamed for wanting a fairer experience.
The game is played by the community even if it is made by the devs. If requesting for change so that the players can have a better gaming experience is entitlement, then let us scrap the Ideas and Feedback section altogether.
That has nothing to do with balancing updates however.
So people like QoL stuff. Why that should come as a surprise is beyond me. Or are you saying that we should all be just grateful for what we have been given and just shut up and keep buying more Loyalist Packs?
People care about something and want to see it improved, and you are acting like they are holding a gun to the dev’s heads and demanding ransom. So yes, Over-reacting.
I do remember the highest current waystone being added at some point, but couldn’t find when it was added with a quick search. It may have been something that didn’t make it into the public patch notes, or it may have been lost in the forum changes.
Not trying to argue further here, but I would like to point something out. Confirmation bias will make any RNG-heavy system feel “unfair” to some people, regardless of how weighted in the player’s favor it is (or isn’t).
In that case, I also want to point something out. I am playing the devil’s advocate here. Personally, I have no problems with SR upto 80 on any of my builds and so don’t have a problem with the game mode.
But if enough people feel like something needs to be changed to make things “fair” or “easier” or whatever term is used, I don’t see the problem with that.
Maybe, but a thread with 10 dudes yelling about the unfairness of +60 SR hardly qualifies as “enough people”. Even less so if that group of people includes mad_lee.
I just want to say the game difficulty has always been the same, but people’s expectation of what a build should do drastically changed.
Back AOM first came out it was partying for crucible 170, farming SOT or 150 if you are undergeared, builds doing superbosses were unheard of or purely built around it, as in entire gearing set + devotion paths and not just change an amulet. Now we can do these things and more builds can do end game content while also doing it efficiently enough, we are at a good spot. The diversity of the builds have never been higher, we have some actual viable mages and ranged builds now, before it was tank or perish.
Theres nothing wrong farming 60 shards, the loot generation is ludicrous even compared to crucible extra spawn, you are able to complete sets and gears for your next char insanely easier than before, which has always been the goal of grim dawn endgame.
We cant have powercreep forever, something has got to give, otherwise you end up like path of exile where the screen explodes and you dont even know what mobs look like.