Looking for advice on how to make better builds

[Zinloz]

Sorry if this is the wrong place. I looked at the build section and that looks like it’s used for builds that people want to promote.

I’ve been making my own builds exclusively. They generally do well enough - I can do SR30-31 in 4-10 minutes (varies by build and layouts), I have no real issues with full ascendant altars on ascendant difficulty, including all roguelike dungeons, The Dread, etc., I can clear Crucible on the highest difficulty, often without the buffs. But they still feel lacking in various ways.

Here is my most recent build: Witchblade, Level 100 (GD 1.3.0.8) - Grim Dawn Build Calculator
Will post some other builds if helpful.

I actually have this complete except for the medal, where I’m using Mythical Brand of the Crimson Company - Legendary Medal - Grim Dawn Item Database instead until I find it. But I basically consider this build complete, since the medal is not that different. I do have ascended mods on all items, but they aren’t optimized - I basically just rerolled until I got something useful, like OA/leech, -all res on curse, etc. I view these as a nice bonus and I want builds to be good without them; they should make good builds even better, but not be a requirement (maybe I’m wrong, but considering they’re new…).

This build in particular is a bit squishier than I’m used to (deliberate, I wanted to try a more offensive build, and I think I’m generally good at building defenses when I want to), and I have to pay more attention or avoid certain attacks. But the real issue I have with it is the damage just doesn’t impress me. In general I would say this is my biggest issue with my builds - on paper, they looks like they should perform great (and maybe they do, maybe my expectations are bad since I have no comparison point other than things like “Ravager killed in 7 seconds”). For something like The Underking on ascendant with a full altar I’m looking at maybe 10-20 seconds for a kill? Similar times against bosses in SR30 and 31. Some die faster, some slower, but I would say no more than a minute for anything other than The Dread.

I’ll post my build process below, but this is already long, so questions:

1. What does a good build look like? Is this build actually good and I have unrealistic expectations?

2. How can I improve this build in particular, and maybe any general advice on making builds? (see my process below for possible deficiencies in what I do for easy improvements)

How I make builds:

1. Pick a skill. I’m not looking for power necessarily, I just want to focus on a skill and see if I can make it work. Make it works means doing SR30-31 and a full ascendant altar.

2. Look at what the skill is capable of. Does it have mutators in the tree? Can the class debuff its own damage type(s)? What skill modifiers does it have?

3. Pick a damage type for the skill. In the example build here, I wanted to make a physical build. Easy, it’s already physical so I don’t need a mutator, and now I’m going to try to use items with good skill modifiers for this damage type and what I expect the skill plays like (I don’t always know what a skill does in game, and I often pick a skill completely blind).

4. Look at other skills the build will use (start making the skill build itself, but the skills won’t be finalized until later). Since I’m going phys, I want break morale. War Cry doesn’t have 100% uptime, so I need to look at making that happen. Oh, there are helms with -3 seconds on the CD. Make a list of the items and their slots and a brief on why they’re strong/potentially helpful for the build.

5. Go through my list from 4 and start making choices. In this build, I could have used a MI helm with the same -3 second CD, but I like the Warborn helm over the Warborn shoulders (and I like the Iron Maiden’s shoulders over the MI helm), so I picked the Warborn helm. This is a pretty fuzzy process where I’m just trying to analyze a big group of items and pick the best thing for a given slot, considering tradeoffs of other items.

6. After 5, those items are basically fixed. I then look at the devotion tree and try to pick things to make the build better. In this case I knew I wanted a lot of flat physical damage so I tried to grab that. Sometimes I focus on regen for sustain so I will pick the Behemoth constellation, etc. I always focus on a -% RR as well if available, and -RR. Other constellations are picked generally for things like OA, stun/freeze resists, etc. - whatever I need to get the higher priority constellations.

7. Search for items with specific stats I want, like flat physical damage, for the remaining item slots. I typically look for items with other good stats like physical resistance, health/% health, OA/% OA, etc. But I have some kind of priority system (varied by build) where I want a specific stat and then look for the best combinations of stats that include that, basically. Not all slots have the particular things I’m looking for, so they stay empty for now. I also look for strong proc items, such as the two -% phys resist rings in this build.

8. Look at what the holes in the build are. What resists do I need to cap, how much health do I have, what is my OA/DA, etc.? I write this down and then repeat (7) for the remaining slots, trying to fill the holes. For MIs, I assume 1 affix only (the second is normally a damage focused bonus, rather than a mandatory stat like stun resistance).

9. Pick components and augments for everything. Hopefully by this point I can just default to the % health augment, otherwise I pick resists as needed. For components, I try to focus on DPS ones for weapons and jewelry, and fill any remaining holes for other slots - if no holes, more DPS.

10. Finalize the skill points. Look at what skills gain with each point (find soft caps?) and adjust based on my +skills from items.

I may be missing something, but this is the general process. I know this is long and I appreciate anyone that read this far. Any advice on how I could change my approach to building to make better build would be appreciated.

I should note: I don’t want to make the best build/a top 20 build/whatever. That would be cool if it happens naturally, but see my previous comments about how the build starts. It sets out to make a skill work, not to make an uber build.

[Coincident]

A “good build” is what you consider good. Don’t let someone else’s “Ravager killed in 7 seconds” define your own measure of success.

Some people prefer making glass-cannon builds just to kill bosses super quick but then can’t survive much punishment. Others make super tanky builds just to try and survive SR40+, but then killing speed is quite lacking.

In between those 2 extremes, there’s a HUGE space of possibilities that you can play around and balance offense and defense as you see fit.

About your process of making builds: I feel step 7 should be much higher up the list. Due to end-game legendary items and legendary sets often converting damage types to something completely unexpected, and sometimes even contradictory to the “regular” damage types of a certain class, the sooner you figure out your end-game damage conversions, the sooner you figure out everything else.

For me personally, your step 7 is my step 1. At least for the most important item, which usually is weapon(s), but can also be an armor set. The problem with picking your classes first, is that you can go for a physical Cadence build for example, and pick a 2nd class to boost physical damage. Then you reach level 100 and suddenly a super cool legendary item drops with huge bonuses to Cadence. Unfortunately, it converts 100% physical to aether damage. Now you wish your 2nd class was Arcanist… but it’s too late to change.

[DeputyChuck]

@Coincident

For me personally, your step 7 is my step 1.

Same here.
Well, step 2 sometimes.

First thing that launches it: I either pick a skill, and look at what support it has through itemization. Or I see an item with a mod on a skill that looks fun, then I try to see what I can put around it to make a complete build.

Your step 3 is usually baked-into the earlier steps.

Then I look at other mods for the same skill that are compatible with it (no dual conversion, no breaking a set with a piece in the same slot, etc.)

Then I look at what I have assembled so far to see if an obvious second mastery has been supported on the side by the items I have already picked. Otherwise I look for which mastery naturally supports what I’m trying to do so far.

Once I have picked the obvious skills and pieces of gear that define the build, I look for weaknesses that are starting to become apparent (Low OA, DA, lack of RR, etc.) and try to fix those through what I have left to pick for skills and items.

Then finishing touches are pretty much in the order you describe…

last step though: Once the build is fully functional: Going back through the items I chose and really compare them to the other options available. Sometimes what appeared to be roughly the same thing while you were first putting things together will reveal better choices.

For example: What is this amulet bringing to the table that a Kaisan’s amulet couldn’t do better?
You’re not using either blade arc or pets.
Maybe the war cry conduit could also prove useful.

Just audit these pieces one by one… maybe there is something better. (In the case of your amulet, there are plenty of better choices)

Edit: I’m also not sure what the brand of the crimson company medal brings to your build honestly. (you probably meant awakened BADGE of the crimson company ? ) In which case it’s good, but Gutworm’s mark could do just as well, and allow you to fix weaknesses with the right affixes. not a problem per se, but worth considering too )

[FlamingX21]

The style and fun, the rest doesn’t matter.

[RSnoomak]

@Zinloz

But the real issue I have with it is the damage just doesn’t impress me.

That’s totally normal you force Internal trauma devotion map on a Cadence build , also any physical build goes for Dire Bear ,it’s not something you skip because any high Armor target will put your DPS to sleep

[DeputyChuck]

@Zinloz

Here is my most recent build: Witchblade, Level 100 (GD 1.3.0.8) - Grim Dawn Build Calculator
Will post some other builds if helpful.

As for constructive criticism of your build itself:

There is what I said about the amulet.
Why not use the warborn shoulderguards to get the attack speed and flat damage bonus ?

Your points in second rite are not as useful as maxing out Decorated soldier, Oleron’s rage and fighting form IMO.

Likewise for the points in Menhir’s will: you don’t run off of health regen, so the only thing this gives you is a heal circuit breaker… it’s worth 1 point, but the rest is better spent elsewhere.

You seem to have completely overlooked fighting form. It increases the number of targets and the amount of damage you deal, even if you don,t care about the bleed damage.

You can also max out war cry to increase the damage reduction bonus.

I moved some devotions around too, and obviously you will have to compensate for some changes in resistances, but here’s what it could look like: Witchblade, Level 100 (GD 1.3.0.8) - Grim Dawn Build Calculator

More OA, better attack speed, better life leech and about 1 1/2 times as much flat damage (And better % damage too)

[moitoanhl]

I would not look to superbosses as metric, especially not the “7 sec Ravager”, since those builds often involve aether clusters, TDM potions, and other stuffs that would not be suitable in general plays at all.

As for your 1st question, my 2 benchmarks for good build is:
-Can it clear SR 30-31 comfy
-Can it kill Dread comfy
The 3rd metric that would make a build really great for me is “Can it handle altar’d Dread comfy”, but even this is something I’m still trying to work toward. I do have a handful of builds that can handle it, but it was not comfy to my liking. Basically a lot of emphasis on comfy while still having reasonable dps.

For your 2nd questions, I’d bump step 7 to 1 or 2. This is mainly because damage conversion, or just really major additions, basically something that warrant building around it. Additionally I’d also try to get stun, freeze, and slow resistance to 80, since a good handful of enemies including nemesis will make it clear if you’re lacking these (no need to overcap though). I’d also get petrify and entrapment resistance to at least 50 for similar reasons. I’ve seen some build ditching entrapment res if they’re sufficiently tanky, but ultimately I just don’t like being glued into a place. If your playstyle involve plenty of casting, I’d also get disruption resistance to at least 30 via an Arcane Spark somewhere.

As for build criticism, I don’t play physical build much so I won’t give much opinions, but I noticed no Dire Bear constellation for armor shred. Because physical damage has to content with armor on top of resistance, it can be as equally important as RR

[Zinloz]

Thanks for all the replies so far.

@Coincident

For me personally, your step 7 is my step 1. At least for the most important item, which usually is weapon(s), but can also be an armor set.

@DeputyChuck

Same here.
Well, step 2 sometimes.

First thing that launches it: I either pick a skill, and look at what support it has through itemization. Or I see an item with a mod on a skill that looks fun, then I try to see what I can put around it to make a complete build.

@moitoanhl

For your 2nd questions, I’d bump step 7 to 1 or 2.

Sorry, I think I conveyed this poorly. I think my step 3 is basically this. This is where I’m looking at sets and item skill modifiers to see what I can do with a skill. My step 7 is more of a “given my constraints from previous steps, what else do I want to focus on for the remaining gear?” But perhaps that’s an issue in my approach, instead of splitting the gearing do it all at once, and maybe all early in the process?

@DeputyChuck

Once I have picked the obvious skills and pieces of gear that define the build, I look for weaknesses that are starting to become apparent (Low OA, DA, lack of RR, etc.) and try to fix those through what I have left to pick for skills and items.

Sounds very similar to my process, but the ordering/specifics may be different. I may have a problem where I don’t know what I should be aiming for. I generally try for 20k+ HP, but I don’t really know why, or if it’s sufficient (I assume this depends on other factors like circuit breakers, range vs. melee, DA, etc.). At this point I feel like I can never have enough OA, but I think there’s heavy diminishing returns on it so maybe that’s wrong? DA I also don’t know. It feels like OA where I want as much as possible, at least until I’m crit immune, but that seems to come at a high offensive cost.

I think this comes back to “what is a good build?”. Is there any guidance on rough levels various stats should be at? Obviously this is going to vary a lot based on skills, playstyle, and other factors, but even rough ranges may be helpful. I also expect this will develop as I play more, since I’m already identifying weaknesses in prior builds when I make new ones, so maybe that’s ultimately the answer (just play more).

@DeputyChuck

For example: What is this amulet bringing to the table that a Kaisan’s amulet couldn’t do better?
You’re not using either blade arc or pets.
Maybe the war cry conduit could also prove useful.

This is a really good point and I probably need to be more discerning with it. Your later post mentions the 3-piece Warborn set bonus, and you mention the amulet here. I actually didn’t give much thought to the amulet, but I did consider Warborn shoulders over MI. I, maybe naively, thought that swapping the MI out for Warborn would make hitting certain stats, namely resists, more difficult, and so I opted to keep the MI. This may come down to experience/game knowledge, or just a harsher judgement call - is this really the best choice?

@DeputyChuck

Edit: I’m also not sure what the brand of the crimson company medal brings to your build honestly. (you probably meant awakened BADGE of the crimson company ?

No, I meant the Mythical Brand of the Crimson Company. I hadn’t found the medal from the build yet (got it this morning), and my existing one was some random MI I got leveling, so when this dropped and it has flat phys and attack speed I switched it in. Possibly just a bad judgement call. Do you mind explaining why you don’t think this is a decent pick, at least as a temporary item? I get that it has a lot of things I don’t care about, but I would think the flat physical damage and attack speed alone would make it decent.

@RSnoomak

That’s totally normal you force Internal trauma devotion map on a Cadence build , also any physical build goes for Dire Bear ,it’s not something you skip because any high Armor target will put your DPS to sleep

@moitoanhl

but I noticed no Dire Bear constellation for armor shred. Because physical damage has to content with armor on top of resistance, it can be as equally important as RR

This is a huge miss for me. I try to get armor in my builds for defense, but I completely neglected it offensively. Thanks for pointing this out and I’ll see about incorporating it and how it impact the damage.

I will look for a damage formula or some discussions around DPS, but I’m guessing armor comes into the formula quite early or in some specific way and has an outsourced/unexpected impact on damage?

@DeputyChuck

Your points in second rite are not as useful as maxing out Decorated soldier, Oleron’s rage and fighting form IMO.

This I find really interesting. I took Second Rite for the crit damage, which I assumed would have been more impactful than the % physical damage from Decorated Soldier or Oleron’s Rage (Oleron’s Rage could get more OA which would be nice, but it’s diminished heavily at 12/12, isn’t it?). Is this not the case? Fighting Form may be a better argument, but I’ll explain why I didn’t cap it later.

@DeputyChuck

Likewise for the points in Menhir’s will: you don’t run off of health regen, so the only thing this gives you is a heal circuit breaker… it’s worth 1 point, but the rest is better spent elsewhere.

Also surprising to me. I don’t think this is a great investment, but it was mostly “I think it’s the best remaining choice”. Will look at your edits to see how you shuffled things around. The regen point makes sense, but halving the cooldown and doubling the heal seemed worth it to me.

@DeputyChuck

You seem to have completely overlooked fighting form. It increases the number of targets and the amount of damage you deal, even if you don,t care about the bleed damage.

Yeah, and after playing the build a lot I think this may have been a mistake. I don’t know why but I thought the build would have better clear than it does. I also thought the % phys would be minor, which from your previous comment it sounds like I may be undervaluing it. Probably another knowledge gap and just a bad call.

@DeputyChuck

You can also max out war cry to increase the damage reduction bonus.

Also considered but dismissed. This is another one that I think may have been a bad call, considering how squishy the build ended up being (it’s not the worst, I just can’t face tank everything). Similar question as before, and it applies to a few things you’ve said - are decisions like this just going to come with more experience in the game primarily? Or is this something I could/should have been able to know just through better analysis of skill descriptions and cost/benefit analysis?

I’m looking at your build revision now and I greatly appreciate that you took the time to do it.

Edit: Looked at the build. A lot of the changes actually really confuse me. Like the amulet. It gives up OA, attack speed, and flat physical damage to gain some % damage and +1 all skills. (Edit again: I wasn’t looking at just the base item, which trades flat phys and attack speed for health and +1 to all skills). Because of this, I feel like I’m severely underestimating % damage (particularly when a build already has a lot of it), because otherwise this looks strictly worse. Would you mind explaining why you made the changes you did so I can understand them better?

@moitoanhl

I’ve seen some build ditching entrapment res if they’re sufficiently tanky, but ultimately I just don’t like being glued into a place.

I think this is my first build where I haven’t gone for entrapment res…never again. Even if I can survive it, it’s super annoying. Edit: And I think even petrify may be the cause of some of my deaths in SR. Sometimes I just stop attacking and moving and I couldn’t identify it. Will pay attention to enemies next time and look for basilisks, but I may have been underestimating petrify res as well.

Thank you again to everyone who took time to reply. From the responses and thinking about them, it sounds like I have a lot to learn about the game in general still.

[Gnomish_Inquisition]

A “good build” is what you consider good. Don’t let someone else’s “Ravager killed in 7 seconds” define your own measure of success

allow me to take this a step further, “depending on your personal preference”.caveat
A good build is something you enjoy playing/have fun playing or making, even if its performance/“metrics” might end up below par for “meta”

[DeputyChuck]

@Zinloz

Also surprising to me. I don’t think this is a great investment, but it was mostly “I think it’s the best remaining choice”. Will look at your edits to see how you shuffled things around. The regen point makes sense, but halving the cooldown and doubling the heal seemed worth it to me.

I mean, everything is “worth it” in a vacuum. It’s more about "What could I get instead for the same skill points.

@Zinloz

This is a really good point and I probably need to be more discerning with it. Your later post mentions the 3-piece Warborn set bonus, and you mention the amulet here. I actually didn’t give much thought to the amulet, but I did consider Warborn shoulders over MI. I, maybe naively, thought that swapping the MI out for Warborn would make hitting certain stats, namely resists, more difficult, and so I opted to keep the MI. This may come down to experience/game knowledge, or just a harsher judgement call - is this really the best choice?

I mean, the extra 10% attack speed and the flat physical damage is better than the stat bonus the MI gets IMO, but I never played the build, so it might be better with the MI too. The idea was to point it out so you can later make a more informed decision in case you haven’t thought about it.

@Zinloz

No, I meant the Mythical Brand of the Crimson Company.

Why would you include that in your build ?
aside from +2 to curse of frailty, it doesn’t bring much that you can’t get elsewhere. Even the Markovian stratagem you have right now is a better choice IMO.

@Zinloz

I hadn’t found the medal from the build yet (got it this morning), and my existing one was some random MI I got leveling, so when this dropped and it has flat phys and attack speed I switched it in. Possibly just a bad judgement call. Do you mind explaining why you don’t think this is a decent pick, at least as a temporary item? I get that it has a lot of things I don’t care about, but I would think the flat physical damage and attack speed alone would make it decent.

Oh! then yes, it’s definitely a good temporary pick. it has stats you care about. I thought you meant for endgame, and you confused it for this one which has cadence mods on it. That makes more sense now.

@Zinloz

This I find really interesting. I took Second Rite for the crit damage, which I assumed would have been more impactful than the % physical damage from Decorated Soldier or Oleron’s Rage (Oleron’s Rage could get more OA which would be nice, but it’s diminished heavily at 12/12, isn’t it?). Is this not the case? Fighting Form may be a better argument, but I’ll explain why I didn’t cap it later.

It’s not a bad choice, but up to a point, OA IS crit damage, since you can get the better multipliers. It also gives you flat IT and %damage on top, while the other bonuses on second rite are less relevant.

@Zinloz

Yeah, and after playing the build a lot I think this may have been a mistake. I don’t know why but I thought the build would have better clear than it does. I also thought the % phys would be minor, which from your previous comment it sounds like I may be undervaluing it. Probably another knowledge gap and just a bad call.

The %physical damage on it is not a global bonus, but one that is applied to the skill. essentially it boosts the added damage on cadence, so it’s much better than the “drop in the ocean” from adding some more %physical damage to your already 200%+ high pile. The extra targets are also fun.

@Zinloz

Also considered but dismissed. This is another one that I think may have been a bad call, considering how squishy the build ended up being (it’s not the worst, I just can’t face tank everything).

Damage reduction sounds a bit boring, but it’s fundamentally better than DA, armor, resistances and whatnot… it’s a true damage multiplier. if you get -30% damage reduction… enemies just straight up deal 30% less damage, which is easy to count for most things, but it also makes your armor even more valuable since it reduces the size of hits that could go over your armor value.

It’s arguably one of the best stats for defense in the game. And it doesn’t stack with other DR abilities… so get the best one you have and crank it up as much as you can.

@Zinloz

Similar question as before, and it applies to a few things you’ve said - are decisions like this just going to come with more experience in the game primarily? Or is this something I could/should have been able to know just through better analysis of skill descriptions and cost/benefit analysis?

Both
Experience plays a huge role here, but I know people with 2000+ hours in the game who barely understand the game mechanics. There are also a lot of things that SOUND good or bad, but apply in a non-intuitive way in-game. So informing yourself on how things work, asking questions like you’re doing right now, and try to understand why some builds are succeeding when others fail will have you on your way to make better chioices. Don’t be afraid to ask for feedback on your builds: GD is a game with pretty involved mechanics, so a lot of things are not obvious. As long as you don’t get defensive and you ask politely, you’ll find plenty of highly opiniated people who will dispense truth with varying degree of tact here.

@Zinloz

I’m looking at your build revision now and I greatly appreciate that you took the time to do it.

My pleasure

[Noksion]

Hey OP, I asked a similar question a few month back:

How do you approach creating builds?

Hey there, wanted to discuss the title. I’m at the point when I’ve leveled quite a few builds found here on the forum, ranging from the top20 to the silliest memes someone put in the comments to a random thread not even in “classes, skills and builds” forum category. And something in-between. Also I believe I have at least somewhat okay~ish “reading comprehesion” to the point that I can tell what’s going on by just looking at grimtools of a build. I even shared my feedback on a couple occasio…

I recommend you skim through the answers. The thread is not that big.
I found answers very useful.