Looking for Physical Forcewave Endgame Builds

[Gnomish_Inquisition]

@GIJW

hey should have “done” nothing this far into the game’s history

yea but, imo that’s the part you’re wrong on
main reason being repeat calls to not reduce game’s difficulty, (but actually increase it back again), which had happened passively (a lot) directly and collaterally by buffing builds over the years. In the own words of the devs they also felt the game had suffered from that passive out statting element.

@Zantai

Over time, the game naturally went through power creep, resulting in significant power gains on the player side, but not much of a change on the monster side. As a result, the game had become much, much easier over time. This had the unfortunate consequence of trivializing boss mechanics to the point where face-tanking everything was the expectation, rather than a niche of ultra tanky builds. We had certain tools to combat this, but aside from making one-shots common-place, which I frankly do not think would be all that fun, we could apply resist reduction.

Problem with that is, alongside all that power creep, stacking resistances became easier over time. This is fundamentally a good thing. Resistances are largely mandatory so making that less stressful meant more builds could shine. However, it also trivialized all those resist reduction effects as you could ignore them thanks to overcaps. So one of our main tools of making special attacks threatening was effectively irrelevant.

---

Now here comes v1.2. The intention was in fact to bring back some of the challenge that was lost. I think we largely achieved that, although there is more work to be done. I actually think Sunder will need a bump on Ultimate difficulty, rather than what you’re hoping for

and outright 1shots, either with no warning or recover time, i think all would agree would indeed have been worse, than (sunder) debuff that still lets you move away after getting hit (- even if you fail evade)

[GIJW]

@Gnomish_Inquisition

and outright 1shots, either with no warning or recover time, i think all would agree would indeed have been worse, than (sunder) debuff that still lets you move away after getting hit (- even if you fail evade)

Yeah, sunder is imo just a reaction thing, and if you fail to evade it, just run for your life for 3 seconds and try again. Not exactly exciting game play imo.

[Naamari]

If anything, I think Sunder is still way too weak. In most cases at least, if you have even a remotely finished build you can still tank it (not Ravager or Calla usually) and probably whatever comes after. More buffs please.

[Toxophilix]

@GIJW

Read between the lines - they should have “done” nothing this far into the game’s history. Imagine going to your favorite restaurant for almost 10 years and then suddenly they change the recipie for your favorite dish.

Well, there are going to be much bigger changes in FoA.

@GIJW

And now this thread is gonna derail into a sunder discussion

Haha. Yep

[Gnomish_Inquisition]

i kinda share that notion
but i also understand devs wanting to keep the game accessible to the more regular players reaching Ult, both MC and early endgame, so high sunder or high(er) base attack dmg for followup attacks could become semi ravager reflex speed punishing for those i guess.
Unsure if or what a better middleground could be for general content
*tho granted could start by dialing up SR 30++ scaling if nothing else so 4pull gangbang becomes completely impossible for “all” builds

[Toxophilix]

@Naamari

If anything, I think Sunder is still way too weak

I tend to agree with that. In most cases one can just ignore it, which is not great. Of course, one could go too far the other way.

In general, I think the game could use more very hard bosses, but perhaps we will get that in FoA.

[GIJW]

Imagine getting sunder in diablo 2

Anyway, for a game that has no seaons etc, I always think that the game should be as static and constant as possible. I have lost track how many builds in this game that has become “dead by patch” like some builds I crafted sooo many condiuts for that specific conversion modifier just to learn that a few weeks later that modifier would be reworked to another skill and another damage type, and so on. I do appreciate that devs are trying their best to keep the game fresh for the few people still playing it and caring about balance and so on. But, for “on and off” players like me - this can become detrimental - but it can also be “fresh”. For me, it is a 50-50 sort of thing. One part of me just wanna play another game and some part of me still love this game and wanna play more.

[Bas]

@GIJW

But, for “on and off” players like me - this can become detrimental - but it can also be “fresh”.

I very much agree on this. I usually dislike games that keep changing everything, either by reworking existing stuff or adding more and more DLC.
I feel for the most part in GD it isn’t too bad. It probably also depends a lot on whether you just made a build that got screwed over by a patch a week later or not. Sunder was a ‘big’ change, but at the same time I don’t feel like it’s a huge deal. You just move around a bit more and instead of using the movement rune I smash the spacebar now
I do dislike that the game feels a lot easier now than when I started playing 6 years ago. It’s a bit hard to tell whether that’s because of buffs in patches or just because I know better how to play. Probably a bit of both.

I really hope some of this gets addressed with FoA. And I don’t mean the boss fights, more the general enemies you face. It also doesn’t feel great if 90% of the game is a cakewalk, which is what discourages me the most from playing.

[GIJW]

Adding more stuff is usually not a problem for me, but changing too much core stuff is a big no no for me. Sure, adjusting some damage and resistance numbers here and there - fine. But not entire skills and items and fight mechanics.

Thing is I do not wanna play a “season” game like PoE, I wanna play a game where I know that it does not matter if I am away from it for months - I can just pick it up and keep playing like I was never away. This means I only have old games to play I was hoping for Grim Dawn to be that game for me, have played over 4000 hours of it and perhaps it is time to let go…

Now thread derailed from physical FW to sunder to “how to cope with changes” xD Life is funny sometimes.

[Bas]

@GIJW

I wanna play a game where I know that it does not matter if I am away from it for months - I can just pick it up and keep playing like I was never away.

I am the same. Often times I come back to a game and am surprised that my last save is from over a year ago

[Toxophilix]

There’s the old 1.1.9.8 still available though? Obv you miss a lot of stuff with that, but it’s new stuff that you don’t want, no?

[GIJW]

I wanna play AoM as it was on release, that is peak Grim Dawn imo

[GIJW]

FG on realease was also pretty bonkers, dude. RIP octavius warlord - one of the best builds in this game ever. Now it is totally meme-tier build. Good job devs.

[Naamari]

@GIJW

meme-tier build

What exactly makes a build a “meme”, because I’ve seen some “meme-builds” here that still destroy celestials?

[GIJW]

Did you play octavius warlord on release?

[Naamari]

No, I only got into the game two years ago. I don’t doubt you that it was probably very different back then.

I was just confused about the general definition of a meme-build (a term I hear a lot).

A couple months ago I made a gun wielding, Hyrian Bulwark (wanted to use it for something) wearing elemental Mage Hunter. A total meme as far as I would say and while it was able to do Lokarr and SR 30-31, it still got hopelessly stomped by Ravager.

I wouldn’t call a build that can kill some of the hardest bosses in the game a “meme” personally. Yeah, not in 30 seconds probably, but kill is a kill isn’t it?

[GIJW]

Ok well… you know the “top 20 builds” thread? If FG release octavius warlord was on that list, it would be number 1 and number 2 would be like number 60 or so in comparison…