Agree or disagree? I ended up recommending the game FYI.
Note: This IS a cross-post from Steam discussions and Reviews, but I wanted to generate some more exposure and discussion. The Cons section I think can be addressed by devs, so I will post them in the Suggestions and Feedback section too. If cross-posting is too much, then feel free to delete this xd.
Grim Dawn is an excellent single-player ARPG, that is easy to recommend though it has its flaws.
Pros
Beautiful and varied artwork, even though the engine is starting to show its age.
Handcrafted world design where each cave and dungeon and setting is unique.
Memorable appropriate music, just the way a post-apocalyptic Victorian-era-inspired game should sound like.
Hybrid classes of the six available classes means a ton of options.
Investing Devotion points opens up further possibilities for each hybrid class.
Ability to re-spec Skill and Devotion points
Lore that you can read
Varied quests
Choices that matter and affect playthroughs
Reputation system with factions
Varied and good-looking equipment
New types of unique enemies
Deadly traps and unique boss encounters, with tactics and preparation needed.
Hardcore mode is hard (core).
Mods
Components and augments for the tinkerer and min-maxer in all of us.
Cheap and excellent value for money.
Cons
Not HC (hardcore) friendly as it does not have second life passives, has spike damage and balance issues too. You will discover there are only some builds that are HC Ultimate viable.
Loot system is antiquated and non-innovative and non-rewarding. Unacceptable in 2016. Look at Loot 2.0 with Diablo 3 RoS for an example of a rewarding loot system. 99% of the loot in Grim Dawn is worthless junk as you will discover. This is because there is no additional weighting to get a higher chance of items for either of your classes, nevermind your build. This problem is exarcebated by the rarer the items are, making legendary items for your class and also your build pretty much impossible to get. A simple change would be to at least give you an increased chance of items for either of your hybrid classes, where applicable. This would still mean you rarely get an upgrade as there are many build variations within classes, but at least we are getting closer to a rewarding loot system. Note: I have no problem with the drop rates of Epics and Legendaries, just that they should drop APPLICABLE equipment more often.
Build defining legendaries should drop much earlier, as by the time you get them (lvl requirement 75 usually) you’ve done almost everything in the game.
Few Epics (which you will mostly use even on Ultimate) define builds, just rather complement them a bit, possibly with a skill that is usually underwhelming.
Farming and grinding is very tedious, as you have to create a new instance each time, travel to the boss, and then kill the boss in the same way each time.
There is no end-game. Period. Let’s not pretend the third time playing through the exact same content (Ultimate) is end-game. It’s not. It’s the same stuff except with possibly better loot. Apparently upcoming Crucible DLC will add some much needed end-game.
Forced to level up through the same content 3 times. After doing the first few acts 20 times, you will want to shoot yourself in the head. You’ve memorised each quest, objective, boss tactic, quest dialogue, lore piece and story. Nothing surprises you anymore.
Inability to re-spec Attributes and Mastery points. This completely defeats the whole purpose of experimenting with your build. It is completely unacceptable. Say you actually through some miracle got a Legendary set amulet for your class and build. It needs 100 more Spirit to equip though. What the hell? So you start fiddling with your optimal Skills and Devotions, scrounging for Spirit and %Spirit everywhere you can, and you still run up short. Good job Crate. Mastery points being permanent means you are very wary of changing your build too. I really struggle to understand this fundamental flaw in the game, I can’t think of a single reason you can re-spec Skills and Devotions but not attributes or Mastery points.
Local saves = cheating/hacking in multiplayer. And it also means you are ever so tempted to use a trainer, some of us have more willpower (or are just too lazy to go on dodgy sites to download one xd).
No enchanting to roll off unwanted affixes. When you finally do get an upgrade it usually comes with 2-3 completely worthless affixes. Rolling these to more desirable ones by using materials should be possible.
You will likely only get 200-300 hours before getting utterly bored and taking a long break from the game. Possibly forever.
Conclusion
Excellent ARPG already, but could potentially be truly great with some changes to loot system, enchanting, re-speccing etc.
However, you are aware this is an ARPG and not an MMORPG? I think you get the genres confused a bit and what they should offer.
A build should NEVER be ‘defined’ by the gear you put on, but the gear should ONLY complement the build you already choose to use. You pick a build, apply your points to support it, and add gear that makes it work better - not the other way around. That’s Diablo 3’s problem. There ARE no “specs” or “builds.” You just throw on a set and use the skills it tells you to use. …so innovative! :eek:
Endgame? This is an ARPG. They don’t ever HAVE an ‘end-game’ unless one is forcefully shoved into it like on Diablo 3’s oh-so-creative and not at all repetitive and terrible “rift” bullshit. :eek:
Endgame for Grim Dawn is making builds and gearing them up for most people. It is for me. Or you could just enjoy what you played so far and then be content to quit and play another game. It’s just one game, it’s not a subscription plan for your life to keep you permanently entertained. (and I mean you in general, not YOU you personally. Please don’t become offended). People nowadays think that buying one game is supposed to be a permanent system of anti-boredom with an endless amount of things to do to keep them playing it.
Crafting I agree needs some work, except for the Epic and Legendary blueprints. I think there are way, way, waaaaaaaaaaay too many components to manage and keep track of, and 80% of them are just useless. It needs to be greatly simplified in my opinion. The tired system of “Oh you’re in a new difficulty level? Lets just arbitrarily rule that your resistances are for NO IN-GAME REASON reduced by 1/4, and 1/2 in Epic/Ultimate respectively, because difficulty.”
However, you can MOD this game. I think you forget that. There are some amazing and creative, well done MODs coming out from people on this site that, if you are bored, could offer an extended entertainment plan for your pleasure
I disagree on varied artwork. This is imo GD’s weakest point - lots of reused stuff etc. The same for varied equipment. The same for monsters and bosses.
Handcrafted world is a weird mention as well. Do you mean it has little reused landscape? Well, that’s true then.
Music is also a pretty weak point in GD imo. Personally I turned it off so I can listen music from youtube. Well, maybe expecting something of the level of Ori or Transistor just isn’t fair from my side.
Beastiary isn’t that unique.
Not HC (hardcore) friendly as it does not have second life passives, has spike damage and balance issues too. You will discover there are only some builds that are HC Ultimate viable.
You obviously haven’t played Torchlight 1/2, lol. GD is super HC friendly.
50% agree on loot. There’s a big room for improvement, but elements of Loot 2.0? No, thx.
Pretty much every ARPG doesn’t have endgame except Diablo3, but people grew tired of GRifts too.
Same for repeatitive content.
And the end of your review just screams “I like d3 so I think GD should be like that”.
Crafting I agree needs some work, except for the Epic and Legendary blueprints. I think there are way, way, waaaaaaaaaaay too many components to manage and keep track of, and 80% of them are just useless. It needs to be greatly simplified in my opinion. The tired system of “Oh you’re in a new difficulty level? Lets just arbitrarily rule that your resistances are for NO IN-GAME REASON reduced by 1/4, and 1/2 in Epic/Ultimate respectively, because difficulty.”
I agree, but it’s like… how would you do it otherwise? The game is designed around that difficulty penalty system, all items would have to be reevaluated to fit another system that doesn’t involve the penalties. Simply scaling up health values doesn’t seem like it would be enough of a ramp between difficulties.
Anyway, to the OP, lots of things I disagree with but I’d rather not get involved in a debate or anything, so I’ll just appreciate the time you took for the review.
Yeah I myself am trying to avoid igniting a flame war and starting a shit-storm. I also disagree with some points, but am visiting the thread from time to time to see if people are killing kittens yet or not
Simplifying things is much less work than you think, so i’m not sure how making things simpler is difficult. There are just entirely too many components to micromanage, plus playing Stash tab tetris isn’t my idea of fun.
Just combine the resists on about half of the components into the other half. Less hassle, less inventory management, easier to apply them to what resists you need on your gear. Boom. Done. Let crafting components just combine two full components into one so you can add it to gear and get your resists taken care of easier. Boom. Done. That will make people who have builds that aren’t the PERFECT ones have a more competitive edge so they can focus more on DPS than survival in Ultimate. Managing resists and defensive stats isn’t what many would call “fun” but of course, to each their own.
Which points? It’s good to have this discussion out in the open, because it will get more exposure and if such active members of the community express their voices and concerns then the Devs are more likely to listen.
The loot system is my main gripe, if that was fixed I would be a happy…kitten.
Endgame is already being added apparently with the Crucible DLC soon, so that makes me happy already.
I do realise the differences between an MMO and a mostly single-player ARPG. One gives you loads of activity for hundreds or thousands of hours, the other makes you trudge through campaign for the 57th time, hoping you are excited enough trying out a new build for which you will never likely get drops.
Build-defining gear: These already exist in GD. They are called Legendary (sets). Many of the builds in the build compendium (which has a tremendous lack of HC viable builds by the way) are built specifically with end-game gear in mind. The bonuses are so awesome, it’s silly not to take advantage of them.
Having said that, fortunately you can complete HC Ultimate with a solid build with just Epics and faction gear. If I can do it, so can most people used to ARPGs in HC. It’s just a shame those Legendary items will rarely get used, the game rewards you farming for other characters but honestly the chances of me getting the awesome Shroud of Dreeg set (even one piece out of the 5 would be nice at this point) for my Poison Warlock are slim to none, and the farming is super tedious.
My point about the Epic and Legendary gear was that it just enhances stats mainly, possibly with a new (underwhelming) skill added to your repertoire. This is quite different from a functional change to abilities, which I would have hoped for, but is likely too much for such a small development team.
Thankfully, you are able to trade for the items you need (unlike Diablo 3 - unless you are in the same game where the items drop :eek:).
not sure if you tried it, but…there is also an item trading area on this forum to get the items that you need. Give it a whirl, and see how much quicker you get Dreeg set for your poison lock.
I might be wrong, but I know only D3 with a ‘‘smart loot system’’.
In Grim Dawn is pretty much random as any other ARPG. That being said, there is one type of gear that is less ‘‘random’’. It’s the Monster Infrequent rare gear (green) that drop off either a specific monster (like a boss) or a type of monsters.
I wouldn’t think you need to be geared by the time you finish Ultimate. In fact, the only reason I keep playing this game is because I can make my build better and better. In the other end, D3 have lost my interest pretty quickly by almost giving you your gear (at best you need to find the ancient version…) and by the lack of real goal (infinite paragon/greater rift).
I can’t speak for Asylum but most of your points have been discussed extensively on the forums. Most of it boils down to opinions in anyway.
D3 smart loot… I hate it… completely and utterly hate it… As far as I’m concerned its unrewarding as hell.
The legendries are dropping at the right time because you will not be playing just one character. You will be rerolling. I often find something and then want to build a new character to use it.
I enjoy the farming. Not to say what you describe is the only way to farm.
This is not an endgame centred ARPG. Playing multiple characters is encouraged. Not to say that that is the only endgame.
The inability to respect is intended and touted as a feature. The devs have made this quite clear. Also modding exists if you really want to fully respect.
Hacking… Cheating… I simply do not care one little bit. This is not a competitive game. You win nothing…
My 2000 - 3000 hours contradicts your 200 - 300 hours prediction.
Now again. All of the above is what I enjoy in a ARPG. You do not have to feel the same way but lets be honest… There are games around that align with what you seem to enjoy. The last true single player orientated ARPG that was worth anything was TQIT. Grim dawn was a godsent for people like me.
Again, it’s all just likes and dislikes and opinions. But clearly there is a place for GD. I really DO appreciate you taking the time to give your opinion here as I’m sure the devs do as well.
Your conclusion should have read something like “If you are into oldschool single player ARPG’s, GD is for you!” That would have been a fair representation.
Last but not least… DAMN Martimus… That avatar… :p:p:p:p
Fair enough, and I agree with that conclusion about oldschool.
It’s just hard to accept throwing away 99% of the loot, thinking one day you will actually be lucky enough to get something for your hybrid class, and then super super lucky to get something for your build.
It seems sadistic to be honest, not to want a better loot system.
But I guess I’ve been spoiled with better loot systems, and have difficulty re-adjusting.
You, in one post, complained about having not enough to do or an endgame and then, in this post, you want loot easier to get so you “finish” quicker to have nothing else to do? I find loot appropriate to my builds constantly. if not one, then others. And plus, the shit you don’t use, you break down and craft something you CAN use.
Being punished? Nobody is punishing you or making you throw anything out. “punished?” Really? :eek:
And saying, “I really don’t think you know what a better loot system is” is so damn condescending and assumes authority over someone else. What makes YOU believe YOU know what a ‘better’ loot system is over another GD player who enjoys the loot system as it is? “Think how I do because I have the right factual opinion and if you don’t you’re wrong.”
Come on man. Support your arguments, don’t just be snarky and douchey like that.
I don’t want to minimum 85% of the loot to drop specific for my class. That type of loot system really doesn’t encourage one bit to create new characters.
If all the loot it drops is only for my class and then i decided to create a new character, guess what, i have jack shit to equip that character and i have to farm again just to equip the new character.
With the loot being random, it means i can potentially fully equip the new character with the items i dropped with the old one.
Want an example? I just dropped a bunch of fire stuff (specially two parts of the Ulzuin set) with my Witchblade. Want to know what i want to do now? I wanna make a 2H Rifle Fire Build with those items. And the main reason it was because that stuff dropped with my Witchblade. The chance of this happening with a loot system like Diablo 3 is next to none.
Also, quit with the “played games with better loot system”, trying to imply what you consider a good loot system is the only good one. I consider Diablo 3 loot system to be terrible, but that’s my opinion and if some people like it, good for them. I honestly prefer GD loot system much more.
