I really enjoyed the Diablo 2 model of farming.
Anyone can beat normal difficulty with gear you find on your own with 1 play through: no problem.
After that, the difficulty ramps up significantly, but you could still beat the game on your own with no “farming”. (farming, in my opinion = repeating areas that you have already completed trying to acquire additional x)
But if you wanted to get that cool gear, that awesome, fun, over-powered gear, you pretty much had to farm.
I read some of the replies, but not all of them. There were some points I didn’t see anyone addressing, and the most pressing of them is the amount and degree of hand-holding implemented in the game. Artificial systems - like the one described in the opening post - are always a trade between immersion and coercion for me. On one hand you have the player trying to min/max a game character, and on another you have the developer pushing the player towards different in-game content.
For me this method of coercing the player is just as evil and pointless as the baby-level tutorials that modern big money games are riddled with. It’s a crutch that you are forced to use when your game isn’t good enough to stand on its own legs. I’m pretty happy to notice that the Crate people in this thread seemed to follow a similar idea: The best system is the one you never noticed.
It all boils down to whether or not the developer wants to dictate to the player how the game should be enjoyed. Easiest way to remove farming would be to stop the mobs from respawning and/or stop the player from revisiting earlier areas. Is there anyone here who really wants a game like that? If we allow those to take place, the game will feature farming, and since Grim Dawn seems to follow the ideas of the ARPG genre it means farming will be featured quite prominently through the experience. Min-maxing is a natural continuation from that, bit like cause and effect. I think we should all just enjoy farming and be happy that we can farm for stuff. To make amends with the non-farming folk, I suggest the very functional system of new game+ with mobs on steroids.
The adventure mode of Dwarf Fortress is one example where people jump to the other deep end of the pool. Without any storyline progression mechanic the game becomes just an exercise in survival. Everything is randomized when the world is generated, so you probably won’t see much in the way of familiar landmarks in another world. The ultimate freedom to the player turns out to be actually somewhat boring and stale, and enjoyment is drawn from the powerful modding system. Another game series I’ve played a lot is Disgaea, which consists of a joke storyline and a grind that seems to have no end. That can get a little old too, after a few hundred gameplay hours, but I still play them regularly to see if I could catch that next milestone or twenty while at it.
To sum these rambling thoughts together we, as players, would like a well desiged game with sensible mechanics and enjoyable content. After more than twenty years of gaming as a hobby, it starts to feel like a fantasy that will never take place in reality. I’ll also have to mention that I have high expectations for Grim Dawn and that Crate will solve this problem. 
wow nice first post. :greetz:
beyond that. might i direct your attention to the current understanding of Cairn. http://www.grimdawn.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3116
it helped me frame the proposed mechanics better than basing off TQ.
after a little consideration. new game+ always struck me a something for farmers/OCDers once just aint enough so you go again, and maybe again after that. and what the heck once more.
on the other hand ppl that don’t have at least a little farming in them probably won’t be attracted to an ARPG, cuz usually ARPGs run on the growth of stats as is virtually completely enshrined in disgaea(which is not an ARPG, but does grow stats by the boatload.).
First off, I love you guys for allowing us to communicate directly with the game designers, and secondly, for letting us know what’s on your mind (and getting into specific detail) so that we can offer our input.
Here’s my thoughts/philosophy on farming (in detail of course!)
You CANNOT deny the fact that farming in games isn’t fun and exciting. Most hardcore gamers can’t get enough of it. Take a look at all of the successful MMOs and RPGs out there. Those games are built on farming, grinding, loot, and currency and I think that’s the perfect way to go IF IT’S DONE RIGHT.
Look at the Diablo series. Why does everyone play the same thing over and over even though they’ve beaten inferno a million times? Because they enjoy farming for gold and better gear so that they can continue farming more efficiently. It’s very exciting knowing that you might get an awesome drop that will improve your character or boost your bankroll.
I think devs need to focus on their markets in terms of the “gamer types” that are out there. The two categories relevant to my post are the casual gamers and the actual gamers (hardcore). You mentioned that grinding and farming might not be fun. This could be true for most casual gamers, but not for the hardcore players that you should actually be focusing on. We (the hardcore) are the gamers that will continue to play for years, thus promoting and keeping the game alive.
In order to help you guys out as much as I can. Here’s my critique on Diablo 3.
The Diablo formula is “getting there”. What does it have exactly?
The main reasons I don’t like it (and I’ve heard rants from many players) is how the loot and gear is handled. The randomly generated stats on gear is absolutely disgusting and lazy. You’re telling me I’ve put all this work in just to get the item I wanted but with the wrong stats on it? The item is ultra-rare in the first place! Why even try anymore?
The trade system and currency system isn’t balanced to actually work out. Gear doesn’t bind to anything. Gear won’t sell. In other words, if you’re going to have a trade system, have it work or else don’t have one at all.
I hope I helped a bit.
I must admit, I am a little bothered that this thread exists. So much so I registered after a long time away just to post in it.
I mean come on, isn’t farming for items kind of the whole point, and there’s only a problem with this if you’re grinding forever just for a chance of a decent item (like some other games I won’t mention) or items are raining from the sky (can’t think of any examples)?
TQ was actually very good about this. You can play the game and find decent stuff, if you farmed for a bit you’d have a number of good items to show for it.
But when people talk about “discouraging farming” in an ARPG, that is the same as saying discouraging playing.
I feel that a lot of time and careful consideration has been spent on the subject of farming this makes me want to buy this game that much more but I think it is a pretty important thing for any serious developer to consider.
I do believe it is “fun” to some people. It is just really hard to imagine it being fun if you never liked doing it.
Because there are players who enjoy killing bosses for good loot drops I would suggest leaving that an open mechanic that players can utilize if they feel like doing so. That happens to be some people’s preferred way because it is something they are good at and can do to obtain great rewards.
On the other hand no one who dislikes farming would want to be forced to do so to get the same kind of loot and reward. Because of that I think the same type of loot should be obtainable other ways. Some people like to gamble at in game casinos. Dragon quest slot machines or poker anyone? So you could offer some other outlets for players to seek out and earn the best loot that kind of makes it a win for everyone. No matter what it is you like doing you can do that and still be at the top end of the game.
It is important to keep in mind some players have a certain style they are best at playing and it is better to suit various styles of play than to simply try to eliminate all current styles in favor of a forced new style.
I belive if they thought this through then maybe put another poll regarding these points and see how everyone puts there polls on what questions we shoudl go for.
like
Do we want looting and or shops to sell items
do we want make lesser items disappear as we level up and still have shops
do we want grinding / looting / shops ?
do we want one run though a level right up to end boss ?
stuff like this in a poll and see how we as people vote ?.
what you guys think ?
welcome, actually if you read the OP. that’s pretty much the tone. farming isn’t necessarily a bad thing, but it’s not always the most pleasant task.
for one where gear falls from the sky, play borderlands and kill craw. well ok more of a fountain, wells from the ground and cast realllly high. otoh sturgeon’s law, but you generally pick up about 5-10 pieces at least to vendor.
I didn’t read it all, i just wanted to state my honest opinion here.
I think farming CAN be fun, depending from game to game, but if, and only IF it is rewarding.
There is nothing more satisfying in the RPG-world then finally finding that last set item you have been wanting for so long. It wouldn’t be bad to work for it, after all, set items are usually rare, so how would you complete a set without farming? Especially if there are multiple (sets).
The way I see as a one time player of a game (Except rare occasion like Titan Quest or Borderland) is that farming is great to others who want to focus on the game and get the best things.
What I would suggest is to put some bosses and champions and even some common mobs have ULTRA RARE items. Here for example a MMOARPG I played a lot, Ragnarok Online.
In Ragnarok Online, most monsters had 4 category of items that could drop. The Common(90-30% of chance) :Healing stuff
Uncommon(30%-1% of chance) : Weapons
Rare :(1%-0.02%) Vanity items
Really rare (0.01% of chance): Really powerfull items/gems and really rare Vanity items.
The rare items were rare but not too rare that in a normal playthough you have no chance to get it, but that when you get it you feel special. And the really rare stuff were powerful items that could give skills or change the behavior/element or an item. People farmed for weeks to get some of those Really rare items.
And when you get one, you are REALLY happy.
So yeah, include a chance to get rare items/Vanity items but leave the weird and powerfull stuff to a really low level of chance.
hey, just dont force me to play game like it is some weird “auction house tycon” with option where reall money became only way to get really good gear .
I mean i am not big fan of farming but i dont mind to go around try gather a set or find better items but it would be nice to actauly find some parts of set within resonalbe time vs not even one find for few weeks on D3 … you know ? It is really not hard to make this thing better then on d3 . Items and all that is supose add fun to game not become a game.
If you are up for some auction house thing . Fixed prices is only option to make it just addtion to game not a game itself. maybe even with limis on how much gold player can have. It would limit farming of gold and selling it for really money … i mean when you will consider that reall money will come to it eventualy then some people will just try to make this “farming” their job. Wich is frakign weird and waaay out of games purpose of relaxation from worlds crap. D3 did show how much pathology it can be . But maybe its just becouse their stat system so much based on weapons. Or the greeed for reall money 15% cut … maybe if you want make money on this you could take aproach of microtransactions based games . Like in recent ghost recon online . If somoene is not up for loong farming to get more gold or find better items then he have option to buy some gold or boost for gathering goold directly from developer instead of taking it outside 3rd party or from each other. There still is this thin line where you make farming really fraking slow just to force people use this microtransactions.
Anyway i didnt reall say much about farming as its consequences beyond monotony and i feel i dont have any conclusion but i dont have to i dont run company 
Again, sorry for not reading the whole thread, but well, coming so late into the discussion only to find 51 pages is a bit overwhelming.
It is true that killing the same boss repeatedly ad infinitum would become boring and tiresome.
But generally speaking, bosses are slightly trickier than normal enemies to fight and kill, so repeatedly farming only the same area with generic monsters would get old as well.
Personally I think it’s a matter of preference, I would pretty much grind experience on hordes of mobs to enjoy some good old carnage, and run some bosses for items (since they generally drop more interesting stuff).
One thing for sure is that the approach that Blizzard took with Diablo 3 is fundamentally broken.
Once reached the level cap you need to waste a lot of time looking for rare pack of monsters (usually much, much more stronger than bosses), kill them to get a timed buff, stack said buff a certain amount of times and then go to a boss. The buff would ensure better drop from the boss.
This is not exactly bad per se, but as it is you actually have no other choice if you want to find some higher level rare items. And the fact that this rare mobs are actually very frustrating to manage and kill, combined to the ridiculous amount of money you need to spend to repair the equip every time you die, combined again with the fact that most of the drop are subpar even for the zone you drop them has created a super negative combo.
At least it was this way when I stopped playing because it had become a chore, more than something to have fun with.
All this digression, was not just to bash Diablo 3, but to say that you shouldn’t try to remove options from the players. Otherwise you’ll end up in a spiral of bizarre shenanigans to force them to play the game the way YOU want, instead as the way THEY want.
People like to farm bosses? Then don’t penalize them with ridiculously lame drops to force them to look for random rare monsters.
People like to farm monsters? Then don’t penalize them by making such monsters a combo-nightmare of hellish random abilities.
EDIT:
To add that probably the part of the game where farming would become a serious thing to worry about is when you reach the level cap and you have already explored every nook and cranny of the game.
At that point your only worry could be to find new and stronger gear and probably you’ll end up farming the same boss(es) all over again.
Path of Exile’s developer created something interesting to add a little spice to the end game.
Monsters can drop random items called maps. By using a map you open up a set amount of portals that transport you in a randomly generated dungeon with different characteristics (based on the scroll prefixes and suffixes). The dungeon would contain not only one or more bosses (or minor bosses), but even normal monsters and once the inventory fills up and you want to get to a vendor, one of the portals will be consumed, so you have a limited amount of chance to get in and out of the portal.
This mechanic seems quite interesting and could be very useful to keep a good level of entertainment once you reach the so called end game.
/Sign!
I am the same opinion as DocDoomII. Yes, farming the same boss(-es) over and over and over again is an old mechanic. But it works pretty well und WAY better than Diablo 3 does. When I want to play a little bit at level cap because I don’t have enough time, games like Diablo 3 are more or less sensless. To get some good loot you HAVE to farm those champions to get those buffs. Within 30min you reach nothing! You need way more time to farm effectivly.
So I enjoyed Titan Quest a lot because you can farm 10min oder 45min or 4hr and you always have the same chance to get some good loot!
Edit: Ok, I played D3 over the last 4 days and I liked the farming. I do act 3 inferno runs, for each run I need 20min. So the mechanic isn’t that bad in my opinion.
I think GD needs an auction house. But no real money thing like in D3. An auction house like in many other games where ppl can sell and buy stuff with ingame money. This would make the transactions way easier.
+1
I agree with Renevent on this. I think this should be possible in all ARPG’s actually. It’s something I’ve spent lots of time doing, and it’s not like it’s the only thing you’re able to do at end-game, but it should be an option and possible imo. I also think that the ‘‘Diablo-run’’ and ‘‘Ball-run’’ powerleveling from the Diablo series until Diablo 3, was something people actually liked.
Hell no it shouldn’t. Trading in-game or through a forum, and having to farm items yourself is the most important thing about ARPG’s and the auction house definitely is one of the reasons why Diablo 3 didn’t turn out that successful. Never add an auction house to GD, I’m on my knees begging!
Agreed on both points!
The auction house (not just the Real money one either) ruins D3. I loved trade games in D2. It also allows for a more human method and I always get interesting finds from dickering with people
Also, D3 tried to make boss rushing less important and running through the game more important, but I think it kinda fails to realize that boss rushing is fun. If there is a better way, I am all ears, but for now I prefer that.
Just my 2 cents and this is not as deep as other people may go with these discussions as im not a brainiac with numbers or anything, I just know games, love and play them…so my suggestion is fairly simple.
In my world of games, I would create a game like this that has perhaps 3 degrees of loot settings from the onset of character creation. Perhaps plenty, medium and rare. So that people can simply choose their desired loot sort of range.
Because in a single player game, who cares if Johnny “love lootz” McGee has the most powerful character in his game because he chose to have a loot setup that drops it a lot quicker. It affects nobody, maybe to some it ruins his game experience but to him, for his time range, maybe that’s what he loves.
Whereas a guy like me would probably aways set it to the medium route as I don’t mind farming or playing many chars, but I simply do like to have at least a ratio perhaps where out of 5 sessions I get at least 2-3 decent and really fun items and im content.
So this to me is how id make a game. Just like people select challenge, let them select loot drop rate.
Now of course if this was an MMO that obviously doesn’t work. But for ARPGs, why not I say? Single player games only affect one person, the buyer…so I think it could be a quick and easy way to solve things based on how someone wants to attack their Grim Dawn.
I always liked how Sacred did farming.
Basically you have a bonus that is increased a little when you damage enemies and a lot when you take damage. This bonus is zeroed on death, encouraging you to fight smart. The higher you get the bonus the better your drop rates are.
In Sacred 2 the bonus rose and fell pretty easily, but in 1 getting a good survival bonus took HOURS of careful play. It let a cautious player get awesome drops, and it made death crushingly disappointing without really damaging your character in any way.
Incidentally, the Sacred survival bonus also buffed your stats and experience gain, but that’s irrelevant here, we’re talking drops
I don’t like that idea much, why should the amount of damage I take influence the drops ? I agree it favors not dying, as that resets it, but it also favors getting hurt over avoiding that and long play sessions over short ones.
So to me that is one possible bonus (rewarding not dying) against two negatives (rewarding a play style in which you take lots of damage, provided you survive it and long sessions over short ones as the bonus stacks up).
I don’t think any bonus should be given to reward playing a certain way. If the drops are balanced, spending time farming gets you more / better gear, regardless of how you play, which is all that is needed…
Wow! There’s a lot of discussion here. If put to a poll, I would simply say leave farming alone. It is fun for those of us who do it and the ones that hate it can simply avoid doing so. I personally am in the middle and find that I farm some when I feel my character is behind and I know boss X has been known to drop an uber item or two, so let’s run at him again. Or as many said, to make a quick run that might be productive when you only have a few minutes.
Honestly, if you want to eliminate farming, don’t respawn the boss and have fewer and fewer nasty inhabitants when someone replays a level. But wait! That isn’t fun. Please don’t change it.
Me gusta, -Lark 
I clicked on YerkYerk’s asterisk in his first post…><