On "Farming"

Perhaps the best thing to do is nothing? ; p

To me farming is a given and a pleasurable experience in this type of game. I have a desire to use a phrase I usually hate which is like, “Don’t fix what ain’t broke.” It’s a phrase I hate since it often discourages creative ideas, but sometimes the old formula is just working too well in a way that is likely to lose more appeal than gain it by attempting to mix things up.

Farming was pleasant even when I was farming Mephisto for the 2000th time in Diablo 2 with a level 92 sorceress who had little else to do left besides farm for gear and pick up the smallest amount of exp on the way. The reason it was pleasant is because, in spite of the repetition, I had a goal in mind to collect interesting, very useful gear. And in spite of playing the game for years, I was still surprised sometimes to see new drops every few runs that one of my 4 or 5 active characters could immediately use. There was a goal, and there was a constant sense of reward (not too frequent that it was too easy, but not too infrequent that it was getting hopelessly frustrating).

The pursuit was inspiring and motivational. IMO if there’s something to be improved, it’s the source of motivation and inspiration to farm, not the experience of farming. This game has a wide item database, but so many items do not really apply unless you’ve created about 50 different builds, all at different levels. Even with a couple dozen builds, I’d say over half the items I encounter in the game are almost useless to any one of them let alone the character collecting them, and that does kind of kill some of the joy of farming, replacing it with frustration as I see the same items I’ve seen a dozen times over drop that none of my characters even had use for in the first place. I lose inspiration more quickly in this game in the process of farming than Diablo 2 because of the nature of the loot. That doesn’t improve with increased drop rates, that’d just make me see more duplicates and items that none of my characters are interested in more often. If I see another pistol dealing poison damage I might go insane, such items are so, so, so narrow in applicability (a gun-wielding Occultist/X line? Maybe a gun-wielding witch hunter that’s not entirely a caster that put some focus into cunning? Not something I’m so interested in creating ever*).

* See, in D2 the creators could get away with introducing something like a poison-dealing bow without making it stash-hogging junk for the vast majority of users because it was not necessary for a build to focus on poison damage and get insane +poison/duration modifiers to truly benefit from it – any damage type other than physical was just a minor bonus in many cases. Because of that a lot of equipment that drops from armor to weapons to accessories could apply to far more builds than a very specialized one that someone even exhausting a lot of build ideas with dozens of characters wouldn’t have created yet. As a result there was a far greater joy whenever a unique item dropped, since there was a very healthy chance that one of your immediate characters could have great use for it. In GD, to encounter a single item that is applicable to one of your characters often requires wading through a seemingly endless pile of uniques that don’t. I realize that’s just a fundamental problem of GD’s approach to things (which maximizes build diversity to a greater extent than D2, but reduces the joy of collecting and farming), but some of the items exacerbate the issue by being already more narrow in utility than necessary. This is an issue completely independent of drop rates, even though many might see increased drop rates as the solution – drop rates are a red herring.

About trying to mix up farming and make it more fun, take someone who loves to collect stamps. I don’t share the enthusiasm but I get it. Is it really fun to go around shopping for new stamps? Maybe not, but a stamp collector is inspired and doesn’t think in terms of the immediate enjoyment, he has a goal in mind and he’s compelled to pursue it.

Would it make it more fun for a stamp collector if we started introducing obstacles in his way? What if I started throwing tennis balls at him to dodge every single time he goes shopping for stamps? What if I made it so he has to solve a puzzle or answer a riddle in order to get a single stamp? What if a store or post office selling stamps refused to sell him more stamps after a while until he went to another store? It doesn’t necessarily help anything. If anything, it might kill his joy and motivation. If we want to inspire and motivate stamp collectors more to get more involved in the experience, the obvious solution is to introduce them to very inspirational stamps to collect and minimize the junk stamps they collect on the way, not hurdles to mix up the way they collect stamps.

To me if the desire is to make the repetitive nature of this game less pronounced, farming is actually low on the priority list. For me, it’s questing. There is nothing that screams repetition in this game more to me than when I advance to a higher difficulty with an existing character or start a new one and end up in Devil’s Crossing, only to realize that I should save Elsa, collect fabric, kill Neegan, Jillius, etc., collect crystals for the inventor, dynamite for the inventor, scrap for the well, kill slith to restore the well, find Isaac’s hidden treasure, confront Direni, give slith necklaces to the Rovers, etc. etc. etc., for the 200th time. It is far, far more obnoxious and repetitive to me than Diablo 2 (which was still a little more obnoxious than Diablo 1). In Diablo 2 there were only 6 quests in a compartmentalized act (only 3 in act 4 IIRC) and most of them were “very optional”. In GD, while very few quests are required to advance, it compels and pushes you to do most of them when you have an active quest log appearing on the screen that starts to accumulate so many quests that it’s scrolling off the end of the screen if we try to ignore them and not even compartmentalized/filtered by each act. A huge chunk of experience is also gained by doing quests (maybe half or even more), not killing enemies.

That’s the part that screams repetitive to me, the repetition of doing the same massive number of quests over and over, not farming, since it ceases to lose its entertainment value a lot quicker than killing the same Nemesis for the 1,000th time or killing the same common enemy for the 100,000th time.

The heart of this game is hack-n-slash. It’s where it shines. You can’t really go too wrong making players hack and slash more and collecting interesting loot on the way while coming up with new build ideas. It’s all the things that get in the way of that and obfuscate that and make it feel less rewarding which will generally emphasize boring repetition a lot, lot sooner.

Well said.

Correct. Increased drop rates aren’t the solution. This way I’d only sit on 800, 1000 or 1500 useless epics instead of 500.

The solution (one solution) is creative, intelligent and meaningful ways to craft, combine and trade your items for something new, where “meaningful” means that the result shouldn’t be completely random, but partly depend on what you’re using as input for crafting/combining/trading, giving the whole process a realistic touch as well as some kind of control.

For example you could trade three or five pieces from one set for a random, but different piece from the same set, enabling you to trade duplicate set items for missing ones.

Or you could turn two identical items A and B into a new item, which is identical to A, but is inheriting one (randomly chosen) improved stat from B, enabling you to use several duplicates of the same item to craft increasingly powerful versions of this item.

And of course you’d need some way to manipulate prefixes and suffixes, for example by adding components and augments to the mix. For example the component “Ballistic Plating” is increasing Armor and Defensive Ability, just like the Suffix “of Fortification” that can be found on armors. So combining a piece of armor with a few (3? 5? 10?) of these components could add the suffix “of Fortification” to this item (or modify an existing suffix).

Possibilities are virtually endless …

Doesn’t dismantling require dynamite?
I never had overabundance of dynamite so I could dismantle every extra Epic I found.

Yes, the dynamite requirement is making the whole recycling by dismantling even more tedious.

That said, you’re getting two or three dynamite during each Fort Haron or Cronley’s run and there are many more locations where it can be found, so dynamite (and its farming) is not the main problem.

Problem is that trading/crafting is just too limited and too plain, not to mention those awkward craft A to craft by B to craft C … to craft Z chains.

I love farming, that is pretty much why i play the game. O.o

Really, what else there is even to do after you reach max level? Leveling other characters, of course. But the thing is, that takes gear. I’m the kind of person that doesn’t want to start leveling some character if i don’t have any good gear for it. I also play 100% self found, because the drop rates kinda allow it. 350 hours in now, and i don’t yet have any sets fully completed, but closest i think is ultos, amulet is only thing i’m missing there :stuck_out_tongue: But i have my shared stash and 4 characters full of junk that has allowed me to level few other max level characters, and beat some of the toughest end game content with them.

In Poe i had to trade because i would never get anything myself, but it was too much for me and i eventually got sick of trading every single piece of crap i found so i could sometimes afford to buy something useful for my build. If i had played Poe 350 hours self found, i would probably have nothing very useful for my certain character.

So i think GD is doing pretty well in means of farming. I won’t compare it to D3 now because i see it more of a arcade hack&slash than arpg.

I disagree about farming - it bores me to tears, so I don’t do it. I’d like to
see a mode that’s skilll rather than gear based but know that a) it would be a
royal PITA to code, and b) I’m in a minority, probably a small one, in the GD
player pool. But this is why God gave us modding tools.

I do agree about endlessly re-doing the quests/storyline. It’s the reason I only got to Hell difficulty once in D2, and the reason I doubt I will ever complete even Elite in GD. That said, just playing Veteran mode has been
a lot of fun and a big time sink since the various builds play enough differently
to keep things reasonably fresh.

Yup.

well, i haven’t read all the previous pagess , but what do you guys think about a auction house? the same used in diablo 3 until devs shut it down cause players were using bots for insane farm.
In this game it might work. Considering that all epics and legendaries are hard to find.

You just have to open it during gameplay and search for it. The player who create the trade will ask for a item wich suits their character and then the trade is complete.

This method extinguish farming and at the same time it does not.
You will have to farm for the item you need, but if you find anything else, it’s not useless anymore, just post it at the auction house and change it for the item you are looking for.

Sorry for the bad english, brazilian here. Hope you guys understand what i’ve just said.

You sure?

Are you aware of the fact that in 15 minutes, you can build a mod with every legendary on the ground, ready to pickup and put in a transfer stash?

I’m talking about legit gaming.
If you can use a mod to get every legendary in the game, why would you want the action house for??
My idea is for who is being cursed by the RNG god and can’t find a proper piece of set.

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

I’d really prefer some ingame (SP) mechanisms for this, for example some merchant trading 3 items from a set for 1 random (but different) item from the same set, or trading 3 legendaries from one item category for 1 random legendary from the same category.

With an exchange rate like that people not using some kind of stash embiggerment would miss out on a huge advantage, so it would practically necessitate “infinite” stash space provided by GD. You can’t really introduce a balance-altering feature without providing the technical means to make use of it.
But that would make make stash organization an integral part of the base game. I don’t think GD wants that.

A considerably worse exchange rate would fail to serve its purpose.

Don’t think it’s gonna happen.

… emphasizing even more that stash organization is nothing devs should delegate to modders, external tools or the inconvenient usage of mules.

Here’s a short passage from the game’s official Game Guide:

“… Loot in Grim Dawn is still precious and the best items rare but with drop rates tuned to still allow players to amass an impressive collection with time investments that are more reasonable for people without endless free time. …”

How can you talk about amassing an impressive collection without providing the required stash space? :confused:

Yeah I’m not sure of the absolute Stash space available, but with over 700 Epic/Legendary/MI items etc it’s not a lot of stash space even if focused on one or two classes/damage types. Add in components and other high quality greens/yellows and the stash is reeeeeaaally easy to fill :frowning:

The way I see it, “trading” a number of legendaries to get a new one would actually do the opposite - reduce the requirement of stash space. As you would simply exchange the items not needed for your builds - instead of keeping them for the sake of it.

However all in all, the same stash-space topic comes back all the time.
I personally don’t see any problems with using third party stash tools - currently using Items Assistant which does not have crafting/creating items or require switching stash files.

Eventhough I understand the point of people saying it should be included in the game and don’t want to use third parties, the existence of modding tools and alternatives makes it a lower priority than new actual content imo.

You could store loot on your character, like all the stuff related to this damage type could go on a level 1 character that will make use of it when/if needed.

Please read my posts. I’m aware of the existence of mules.

All I’m saying is this game would benefit from an ingame solution for inventory management and from a reasonable trade/exchange mechanism for unneeded epics and legendaries (and even components), other than tedious dismantling using dynamite.

Should be obvious that this would make farming less tedious and more fun.

Need a Plugy type storage in game. Endless storage. Also the Vault in Titan Quest
Eastern Sun mod for D2 LOD has such a system, as did other mods in LOD
I always enjoyed the trade/exchange systems in games.
Even now I’m playing a LOD mod thats in beta. For relaxation.

Farming is almost required by the fact that storage space is so incredibly limited. We can’t keep all the minor blues that would be perfect for a new character coming up in the world, so when we make that character, we have to farm the SAME DAMN BOSSES that we farmed for the previous character to get the SAME DAMN GEAR that dropped then because we couldn’t use it then.

EDIT - Another thing that makes farming feel so necessary is that you can get a crappy roll for stats on a unique item. Why can’t we just have standard, static stats on everything? I hate getting a purple and realizing it has 1/2 of (important stat) on it that you were hoping for, and is therefore not much use to you. Honestly, random stats and modifiers on gear are just an obnoxious design decision.