If that is not OP, no Pet build in existence is…
Seriously, that thing is broken, even now…
My argument was never about competitiveness though, but whether you understand pets enough or not.
Ask Duskdeep what is really high.
A bunch of 100m runners won’t be able to tell you anything useful about running a Marathon if they have never attempted it.
Mods are there if I decide to update. If not, there are still builds for me to make and play on 1.1.8.1
Interesting that you generalize an entire community like that.
And from doing so comes knowledge and experience, not to mention both are required to make great builds in the first place. And that carries a certain amount of weight when it comes to opinions.
But since you have neither the credibility or displayed adequate knowledge, don’t be surprised if I do not give any credit to what you have to say.
Lets not play that game when you are doing that to troll here, shall we.
I’d rather not reiterate the exact same things in hopes of getting through. I’ll drop the point as it’s apparently too hard to grasp by certain hands.
Please keep the banter friendly. And maybe just ask the other one if you have understood them correctly.
my point wasn’t to debate the OPness or nerf worthyness of the build, but that it shows possibilities post patch. Just like with phys briar you call it OP and “illegal” relying on 2MIs completely missing the point of it being possible post patch and that the Mis are valid because easy to obtain
^doesn’t mean it wont be “balanced” later, but it should show you not all hope is lost in 1.1.9
and i understand pets “enough”, you don’t need to understand pets on a Madlee builder level to understand or grasp their power, that’s the whole point about them being godtier, think i’ve mentioned it before
they are (often) and AiO build, which alone is almost so uncommon it displays something.
It does high SR, again i don’t care if it’s 100, 90, or 85, it does, and most builds don’t.
It is possibly the safest and easiest leveling build, with fair ease of gearing(not to godtier lvls ofc), and when end geared,
it can do everything, and do so safely, and with ease
my “understanding” of pet conjurer being Godtier comes from not only being the first build i killed Crate on, did SR 76 on, killed Mog and Ravager (not Calla, couldn’t be arsed) but did so with massive ease compared to “every” other build at the times i did those things.
Sure i could kill mog and ravager and even calla without pets, but non of them were easy or without sweat, pets were (i wasn’t doing full derper retal just yet at the time).
Sure you can take a blademaster and blitz cruci in 5mins - if you’re a skilled or practiced pilot, that same build/same setup, wont do much else for ya. Sure a blademaster can push 76 too, can even kill Calla, but it does so in different setups each and everytime, and still non of those feats are accomplished with “ease” or a feel of “safety”.
The ooooonly build that rivals/supercede pet conjurer in both AiO’ness, ease and safety, is retal, and that’s only because it’s absurdly broken to be a borderline exploit/cheat
every other build that either manages those feats “individually”, or rarer as AiO, does it much “harder”/puts a lot more requirements on the player one way or another.
That doesn’t mean pets are so OP they deserve to be nerfed to the ground or anything, but does mean that some “trimming” might not be totally unreasonable
1.1.9.1 isn’t a case of the Wildblood “dead build” outcry, where a build 100% reliant on something gets taken away. Pets were “balanced”, and imo more actual balanced than Z’s usual “lets strip these things away because too stronk”
like i said, when a casual like me, not only doesn’t notice a hit, but possibly an improvement, there is no freaking way, there isn’t somehow an expert like you can’t make it work “still”, if not even better ( - until Z nerfs it again 
)
and i can totally get your exhaustion of not wanting to “bother” going through workshopping, “just” to make it onpar or slightly less/0.5 than before, but it doesn’t mean they aren’t still strong, or that they weren’t godtier…
If critt can make something cut pet cruci timer in half, obv OP/nerf worthy or not, it should fuel the pet enthusiasm in you to make it happen with something else too, so pets aren’t “always” relegated to 10+cruci and “only” stronk in SR farm.
maybe you got too good at the pet game so your standards blew out of proportions 
I do not think it is a case of misunderstanding what I wrote, but I can simply explain incase others are probably curious.
My comment in question:
First line:
“It was never any more “Godtier” than any other build.”
Explanation - Different builds do different things.
Pets for example made 2 spots in this thread: ⭐ The fastest cleaners in the World
Some builds are tanks, others are speedsters, others are celestial killers. Pets are jack of all trades or if built specifically for a purpose, lose out on other fronts.
Second line:
“My pet build kills Cally in 10mins? there are those who can facetank it and do it under 1”
Explanation - If Cally kill alone is in question, then you have much faster non pet builds including some that can kill under 1 min. But if a build kills cally in 5 mins, it is still what pets can never do.
Belgo is neither retal nor binder, but can do it in 4 for eg. Still godtier compared to pets for cally.
Sure, both are godtier compared to an Aether Dk that can’t even kill Cally, but if you ask for Aether DKs to be buffed to that point, I will support you.
Third line:
“My pet does SR 120? Yes, if you consider spending half a day for it even to get a favourable state to attempt it to be an achievement.”
Explanation -
" More details here: GrimSheet: Endgame Build Table - ETE edition [v1.30-ε]
On Crittrain’s build: [1.1.9.0] KaosKats V2 Taking pets to the Darkside || 5.18 Cruci ||"
Fourth Line:
“Crucible? The same build does 12min clear…”
Explanation -
Same as that of first line.
Just one small problem.
One particular build that was OP, still being strong and another being strong only because of particular items shows the opposite of diversity.
Now, if you had shown like 5 or 6 different ways to build Chaos or Physical pet builds and then kill Cally under 15 mins in all of them, you might have a point.
What follows prove that to be false
^
Because it was built specifically for that. And at the cost of speed.
Play Kaoscats and let me know if it also lets you do these things with massive ease.
Not all pet builds are alike.
Because that is kind of my specialty. It is not about pets, but how I build things.
I disagree.
Problem is you are talking from your perspective. I see a different and much worse picture.
You speak as if Kaoscats is new or as if I wasn’t testing it before it got posted on the forums. It was born in Discord when I was still a part of it.
It didn’t fuel anything for me to make a Cruci pet build then and it won’t now. Mostly because the reason why I ended up becoming a builder in the first pace was due to lack of non Cruci focused, easy to play builds that offer you the safety you spoke of.
Look up AoM era Sigatrev’s builds for reference. With FG, I ended up completely steering into a different direction.
Or everyone else’s (atleast those who remain) is too low.
non of what is said was false, and the fact that you don’t need to copy paste your birbs to accomplish it proves that,
or that from a (casual) player perspective, when 1 build makes you sweat and and another bores you accomplishing the same feat, if the sweaty build could even accomplish it
you are completely reducing the factual strength of pets as “it’s only AiO/strong if you do this 1 build/ex mine” - when that’s not the case. Because they are mad strong by default, with little “investment”, hence the mention of “ease of gearing”.
possibly something you should take yourself up on then? Chaos blightfiend maybe ? @_@
this is totally true, and why i want more diversity, and not bog standard beastcaller trinkets sr 85 only criterias. I want stuff to be made with Skeles, doggos and BurpFatties. Ofc that “to me” it doesn’t have to do much higher than 76, doesn’t mean it can’t or shouldn’t be a potential to push for others - but you dismiss “all” pet builds (competitiveness) as an impossibility post patch, also ignoring MIs, which just doesn’t help pets or your argument
i didn’t follow your conjurer until i had to/wanted to kill Crate, that’s how easy and strong they are, compared to 98% of all other builds
no the problem is you’re unwilling to even try it… that’s the freakin sad thing… all, whatever, potential “lost”… just because you wouldn’t give it a shake like when zantai tested your tolerance before (and i get it can get tedious constantly feeling attacked when you play “1” thing)
meh, didn’t know that, had kinda hoped it would spark a fire… guess cruci pets are out then 
are they tho 
No, what it proves is that the build doesn’t need to be done exactly as given to accomplish it.
Nothing more or less.
No, I am reducing it to clear cut definitions of what is strong and what is not, when not looked at from a casual player’s perspective.
They aren’t. No build is. Or make a random “mad strong by default” build and post results.
See that is the problem, when you make such claims and have nothing to back them with other than that you played one of my best builds and found it easy on content that is not considered as challenging by any of the Veteran pet builders, you don’t have a ground to stand on.
That will go to Vitality builds with Dark One, unless something has changed.
I am saying that each patch is reducing viability and variety of builds though. If I could prove myself wrong, then I wouldn’t make the statement to begin with.
That was always possible and is possible. I am saying that there isnt diversity to match my standards, not yours.
Hell, I will prove it to you. Let me know what build you want and I will make it for you, right here and now, even Skeletons. Obviously won’t be tested. But I will leave that to you.
I refuse to believe the anecdote that you killed Ravager and Mogdrogen easily with a random pet conjurer with no sense of direction regarding the build.
Ok, so… say that I ask you to touch a hot metal rod.
Say that you have never touched a hot metal rod before.
How much enthusiasm will you have and how willing would you be to actually touch it?
Depending on who you compare with, yes.
it’s shows that the are so strong that it is “easy” even for a crazy novice like me then(now?), and ulvar, to make it happen without a guide/professional template
except, as mentioned meni times now, your definition of strong surpasses that of most other elite builders, even madlee…
except i didn’t, and i have.
the fact that you can take any pet build, from 1-100 with the most ease and success, proves they are mad strong, by default - and i’ve leveled a non pet build or two through my time so i have comparison to draw on.
They are mad strong, by default, not just through leveling, but gearing, because they are so stupid strong even without defensive gear they kill base content, which is not comparable to regular builds that need certain stat checks, pets don’t.
They are mad strong by default, displayed in not just their ability to handle all content, but does so with ease of gearing, (which is no doubt easer because of their base strength), and because more than any other build you get “funneled” into efficiency, that becomes viable for endgame, ie beastcaller builds not needing to copy paste yours/the nr1 version in existence to handle the same feats, altho “lesser”, but still with ease, from a casual perspective
^and yes that is strength of “class”/pet and build. Casual players not pushing their builds to 85+ doesn’t diminish that default strength and power, when those same casual players either are unlikely or completely cannot do remotely those same feats in the same manner and with same ease, yes that demonstrably proves how strong pets are, by default
when i say ease of gearing i don’t just mean target farmable powerful items (of which there are plenty for pets mind you), i talk about the fact that you can make a darn powerful build, strong, and stronger than many others, in “weak” items compared. Not even “simple accessible” items like MIs faction/crafts, heck just regular freakin trash, because anything not skeletons are so strong by default they get powerful in laughable gear - and can then gear up even easier
the only builds that have an easier time for end game gearing are those with strong target farmable items like Dark One krieg etc, and i will 100% grant you Trinkets can be a pita with RNG potential, luckily beastcaller can be crafted, but even “until then” pets are strong in whatever scraps got assembled
^i know this because i don’t stash my 100 tons, i level them, and i level them “as is”, not “lvl the easy/fast/efficient way then respec at lvl 94”, and i leveled most of my pet characters before the influx of MIs
then we are back to you artificially self-imposing lack of diversity onto GD, which is totally your right, but doesn’t mean it’s so, but maybe you don’t give things a fair shot, like patch 1.1.9 (and i’m also not saying you are obligated to either ofc)
less sense of direction than any other build, i actually didn’t even realize pet resistance was a vital thing of concern until you and Zantai’s battle about bird resistances 
- and still “basic” pet item funneling made it happen. (and i’m not claiming it was a 2min kill or anything, there is a reason i don’t bother with celestials, because default approaches tend to be more sloggish than speed optimized per individual celestials)
^and it was still monumentally easier than my other characters, even the ones directly set up for their fight, which took effort/research. With the conjurer it was just, spawn, something dies/got aggro, run in circles like a headless chicken spawning pets off cooldown if they died again. that’s it…
-can not say the same “strength funnel” for skeletons/necro builds tho, will totally give you that (for endgame)
yeye, but are team deep SR saying that’s the standard/performance metric to go by, or just what’s possible? that’s the difference, you’re setting your entire baseline on a performance metric unrivaled by 98% of builds, even by other elite builders…
I thought my pet build was garbage, and then suddenly it was broken and OP etc.
I have 0 knowledge about pet builds, as mentioned, I just saw that I had those items and did some read about if such build has been made before. All I could read was “physical pet builds sucks” but I made it anyway and kept it “hidden” for the entire 1.1.8.X patch basically 
my point isn’t even about optimized pet builds being strong and/or OP’
but that by default, anything “not skeletons” are so strong that it takes less effort and know-how, than any other class, to make work, and work well. Heck if anything my attempt at “tonky” skeletons displays what happens when a casual starts putting more thought/knowledge into it.
But even as “regular” (leveling) builds, pet demonstrably display their default strength, when you can level in trash items, and any other build requires specific stat checks or die, but pets can survive/manage on base defenses and their ungodly healthpool - which then just gets default magnified when slowly assembling endgame gear/scraps
^which is also part of the "godtier"equation i attribute to pets
You said you made my build, but not the exact build.
Ulvar is not a novice when it comes to pets. He knew what he was doing.
I wasn’t accounting for the fact that he was going for MIs, however.
Except, as mentioned many times now, it doesn’t.
Prove it.
Wait, you can’t because you don’t do any of the challenging stuff on pets.
Wait, you do, but did so with a build based on mine.
Wait, but it sacrifices efficiency elsewhere, but you don’t care.
Sorry, but no.
Waiting for your Callagadra kill with weak items. Let me know when it is done.
You get even more diversity if you consider that most of GD’s playerbase don’t even complete Ultmiate.
So, please do not blabber on about diversity.
Ridiculous claims by someone who has no credibility to make such claims will be ignored until proven with evidence. That is my my stance on this.
Because I have tried Celestials when I was new. Not something I’d call easy.
I take it that you didn’t see Duskdeep complaining when Blightfiends got nerfed then.
You can stop lying about that since we have been discussing pets for a while before this patch.
I have 0 knowledge about pets compared to you and others, but since I have general decent knowledge and experience with the game I of course know something 
My actual game play time with pets is less than 300h with great certainty.
I mean I kinda swallowed all the “physical pet builds sucks” which was a major reason why I basically did not even tell or showed this build to anyway, I thought it was pure meme garbage
I mean I spend more time in GT than ingame. So… my play time is not much either…
“When built without Green MIs with particular affixes to boost them even further” needs to be added in those quotes :3
GT is the real game
I never saw those being mentioned. Why would not the best pet builder use green MIs to make best possible builds?
did i say easy? i said easier than my other characters
apples and potatoes, there is vast difference in “cutting the game in half”, and “limiting” your standards to what other 98% of elite builders do - which is still content 99% of regular players don’t play
did i say that? anywhere? remotely? if you want to cherry pick words, at least keep them “somewhat” in the context they were delivered
starting to think you might be selectively reading now, since i’m not gonna insult your reading comprehension…
how many of Madless builds were AiOs, with an SR85 clear metric - while used as a “pass/fail” criteria
and you can try say “but he favoured Cruci”, but he still made builds that could do other tihngs too - so it’s all in your own choice
i said i made a beastcaller conjurer, myself - and when i wanted to kill Crate, i followed yours, that’s the wee difference there, noob beastcaller, still successful, your beastcaller, (way) more successful
-that point being of how easy pets can be in terms of default funneling you into a strong build
and i know/say this as someone that play many different builds, and none with the same ease of power “funneling”, because for other builds you need to pay attention to crap ton of things, with pets it is/was “bonus to all pets”, and no more indepth knowledge required for “casual success”. Where as with “any” other build you need to pay attention to “everything”, and something as little as 3-6% lifesteal can make a world of difference. pets allow you to go in (way) more “blind”
You know why. Have told you why. Well, atleast how it began.
Things may or may not be the case now, but people still ask me for non green builds. I don’t build for myself nor do I post all the builds that I make for myself.
I know it now but I did not know it back then
