Question about Viper constellation

Hi everyone,
so the final node of this constellation gives “20% Reduced target’s Elemental Resistances for 3 Seconds”. Ive read some discussion here (cant remember which thread was it) where some very experienced members of this forum were arguing whether it works as intended or if its bugged. Ptirodaktil mentioned that in some cases where we stacking RR Viper can actually INCREASE monster resists, some other members were arguing its working normally. IIRC Ptiro did some dummy testing and the results were same with and without Viper, but thats not really telling cos testing RR on dummy is not really reliable if I understand it correctly, so overall its pretty inconclusive.

Could anyone shed some light into this?

Don’t recall anyone saying Viper’s resist reduction actually increases monster’s resists for some reason. The thing with this type of resist reduction is that if you can’t lower an enemy resists below 0%, then the effect will be reduced.

Let’s say you reduce an enemy resist to fire by 95% and it has 100% fire resist. Viper’s resist reduction will only reduce by 5% because it can’t lower an enemy’s resist below 0%. In case of the training of dummy, it should boost your damage because it has only 18% elemental resist in Ultimate. You only need 19% elemental resist reduction for Viper to be in full effect.

Hey Aerinqq,

check out this thread

It should answer any questions you have about how the resist reduction is applied.

In short, the n% reduced resistance is 2nd and if the 1st reduction (n reduced resistance) lowers it too far, then you get diminished returns from Viper and its % reduction since it is applied second and can’t go below 0. The third type, -n% resistance, can reduce it below 0 and is applied last.

I thought %reduced is applied last? First -%, then - and then % reduced.

Yes, that thread’s order list should be corrected.

Rayiaz’s order list seems wrong, but his examples are actually done in the correct order.

There is also this helpful cheat sheet:

(not sure who to credit exactly for this cheat sheet…)

I found the original thread I mentioned

It still seems a bit unclear. IIRC viper cant reduce enemy resistance below 0 if the previous reductions doesnt bring it under 0 first? But it shouldnt cause damage loss in any case, right?

Yeah. Viper doesn’t reduce anything at all when the resist is 0 because you can’t lover nor increase 0 by any percentage. For example, 120% of 0 is still 0, but 120% of 1 is 1.2.

If enemy has 100% elemental resistance - Viper reduces it to 80%.
5% to 4%.
-100% to -120%.
-5% to -6%.
Thats how type III debuffs work.

Whether it works or not I’ve actually not seen discussed, I just assumed it did.
This type of RR tends to be good when you have either a lot or very little flat RR.

I usually try to include it in my builds even if I have to give up an Augment slot for it, as I figure its benefits are more valuable than a stat Augment.
It can add a lot of damage when your target spawns with a 100% Ele Res prefix item and they just resist your damage without it.

If you read further down the thread, Ptiro just misunderstood how the RR works. It was clarified later on but he still kept on not using Ultos cause dummy tests didn’t show any significant difference between no ultos/more atk speed vs use ultos/less atk speed.

No dmg loss. Viper or % RR is the last to take effect. If prior rr has taken things below 0 then viper will take it further down, if the monster will have above 0 % rr will take it down a notch

Just to clarify this: Viper RR always has a positive effect unless enemy resist sits at exactly zero, in which case the RR has no effect. The effect of the %RR increases as the enemy resistance after applying type 1 and 2 RR goes farther than zero, both in the positive and negative sides. As an example:

Let’s say you will deal an incoming 100 fire damage
Enemy initial fire resistance = 50%
Fire damage received without any RR = (1-0.5)(100) = 50.
Fire damage received with only Viper RR = 100 (1-0.5*0.8) =60. This is a 20% damage increase from no RR case.
Fire damage received with 21/12 censure RR and no Viper = 100(1-(0.5-0.42))= 92
Fire damage received with 21/12 censure RR and Viper = 100(1-(0.5-0.42)*0.8)= 94.6. this is only a 2.6% damage increase compared to the previous one.

This applies also to negative resistances, and the real reason to use Viper/ultos RR is because they are so strong when all the RR debuffs are applied. And it’s usually very far from zero considering the base elemental res of most enemies is at 18% and you have mostly >100 RR before viper.

uh? no, it would reduce it by 1%. 20% of 5 is 1.

94.6/92 = 1.0283

so a 2.8% dmg increase …

well i’m getting 93.6 but i’m shit at this generally:p

But to even further emphasize all of this, viper really whines where class combo + devotions have an obnoxious amount of RR.

Take purifiers who will shred 140 + RR. Viper gets really good here at exacerbating an already stupid powerful rr

I really wish they would adjust this as its leading to a meta where the only good builds are those that get massive RR from both classes.

I think RR needs a floor or at least diminishing returns. I hate that so many class combos that have cool synergy don’t work because one or both classes lack RR.

There’s just way too much incentive right now to stack RR

I’d blame inquis in general. Any inquis combo that uses any of the three elements or all 3 will be super strong:p

Yeah that’s part of it, it’s definitely made it the norm to have double RR from classes now.

If they aren’t going to tone it down then I think arcanist needs RR for aether and elemental. It’s the only caster that doesn’t have any reliable RR at all.

While they are at it give occultist chaos RR

If every class combo has lots of options then we avoid having these uber combos like vindicator for elemental or conjurer for vitality