Ranged auto attackers are pretty underwhelming. In tough Crucible environment, especially. In SR and campaign are not that strong, but also not problematic.
Top tier ranged builds don’t exist. Second tier have Sparkthrower Vindicator, Stronghold build, probably Dagalon. With mines improved, classical fire Purifier should be decent. Chaos looks good on paper as RahZin, in reality is decent.
What’s the reason? I think the root of the problems @Zantai is that melee auto attackers were the meta for some time. Because of that lot of sources like Devotions gives less flat damage. So ranged weapons already have low damage values and that leads to further increase of difference in performance ranged vs casters. Also in today’s Crucible it’s hard to survive if you take massive damage and ranged builds should facetank too.
What to do to improve it? Tough to say, but maybe re-evaluation of base damage and speed of ranged weapons, as well of more physical resistance for completed sets or even guns. Maybe increase of damage values of Hydra. Idk let’s summon more players to help, that have experience to say their opinions. So please @mad_lee , @x1x1x1x2 , @thejabrixone , @ya1
I think the biggest issue with Ranged is a lack of AoE. What AoE does exist is mostly conical (Storm Spread, for instance) but every other archetype in the game has a means of applying damage on every side of the player. This is easiest for casters - circular AoEs like Sigil or Callidor’s, for instance - but melee can still get AoE procs that hit everything in a particular radius around the player. Pets also get good AoE (Blight Fiends, for instance, and they’re naturally afforded the ability to put the player wherever they like without sacrificing much DPS in the process).
Punch through was overpowered in vanilla (see, the glory days of Vortex of Souls) but nerfed before we ever even got tankier, speedier foes in Ashes of Malmouth. Those foes only got sturdier and faster with Forgotten Gods, and now it’s all but inevitable that things will jump on a player and totally surround them. Ranged characters can only handle one “direction” of enemies at a time, leaving them to be vastly overwhelmed. Lack of usable/reliable CC doesn’t help, and it’s all but impossible to line enemies up when not in enclosed areas (such as Tyrant’s Hold or Steps of Torment).
The solution, to me, would be most readily addressed via more creative gear procs. Melee only attacks in one direction, but it’s its procs that hit everywhere. Ranged, however, shoots Bursting Round, Chilling Rounds, Storm Spread, Valdun’s projectiles, etc. in the same direction as everything else. Fragmenting shots like Brimstone alleviate the problem somewhat but they are not a complete solution on their own and they are few and far between. Vortex of Souls Primal Strike was fantastic because PS and Torrent can hit virtually anywhere after the initial target. It’s that sort of damage application that’s missing from current-era Ranged gameplay.
Edit: Expanding off this to suggest that part of the AoE also needs to have % Weapon Damage, as comparatively Ranged cannot apply ADCTH as well as melee can given that melee can more reliably hit more targets.
In my opinion ranged auto-attackers suck mostly because of very poor itemization. Valdun is crap as is Pierce outside of Belgothian or some builds that are supported by broken/overpowered skills and items (like Pierce BA Blademaster with Bloodrager and Naadan’s Reach). Justicar doesn’t have any specific bonuses to ranged skills. Dagallon is crap. What else? That aether gun what’s its name = crap.
One can’t forget that ranged meta was nerfed couple of times during Malmouth.
What can be done?
Reverse nerfs to stuff like Storm Spread or Chilling Rounds (was there a nerf to Chilling Rounds tho?)
Increase base damage of ranged weapons. I understand that remaking sets is too much work at this stage. However increasing base weapon damage of ranged might partly solve their problem.
Add +skills to Valdun set. It’s absolutely impossible to make anything decent out of it, really, because if you want Pierce Purifier you are likely run out of skill points
Great analysis. The best ranged build I made for FG turned out to become a hybrid caster (lightning runebinder tactician with box) to address this problem. But I could afford it due to my AA being free. Other builds, especially FS can’t, tho they have better AoE due to brimstone. Still brimstone is still technically single target, same as storm spread. the only ways to deal your full damage on AOE are bursting rounds and seal of the void, which doesn’t hit your backside, unlike whirling death.
Ranged AA is a very different breed than melee. Ranged cannot get a big flat damage because for some reason, the base flat damage is always low. That also reinforce by the fact that all of flat source damage in Devo is nerfed because melee AA is so good.
So, ranged AA need to rely on mechanics tricks, cannot be build straightforward anymore. Thus why now the only viable option is fire strike and RF retal. The latter is also quite tricky to build, but I have 1 successful hellborne build here:
Both of that archetype rely on WPS interaction to their AA replacer mechanics. Brimstone+explosive/static strike+shotgun WPS, and retal+shotgun/barrage WPS. No other way around it as base flat damage is so low. That’s also why non retal ranged RF, cadence, savagery are so sucks right now. On a side note, using this mechanic makes you no different than melee, you need to shoot it point blankly to the enemies. “Ranged” benefit is not exist in this game.
My suggestion:
reverse the Nerf on storm spread, give it back that 5 projectiles
increase the base +% damage of 1H gun, this will strengthen that mechanic interaction and make it better as caster weapon.
if the base flat of all 1h and 2h ranged need to be increased, it need to be tested first. Idk if it can make it too strong or not.
ranged cadence and savagery and non retal RF need their own tricks. The simplest solution is a transmuter that gives +%total damage mod.
for the love of the god, please give 100% pass through projectiles to hagarradian enforcer so I can make a proper penetrating ABB build.
Edit:
This either needs to happen at a lower rank (before it was 16/10) or don’t do it at all and instead increased flat damage or weapon damage. Only very few builds could afford going 16/10 as ranged is generally point heavy.
Agreed. I tried to make a “Punisher” build with Valdun’s as a Commando (for thematic reasons only!) and it was a steaming pile of . In my opinion, Valdun’s needs a rework being a Cadence set that gives WPS?? Skill points are really lacking on that set.
Very good point. Unless you’re in the thick of it, which is counter intuitive to the idea of ranged builds, then you cannot kill large groups. There’s pretty limited AOE radius with range builds anyways, so range builds are at a disadvantage compared to melee.
As mad_lee mentioned increasing flat damage on ranged weapons and on that note what about a much larger %damage bonus on 2h ranged for better returns on flat damage? Although I’m not sure if/when diminishing returns start to occur
The problem with ranged archtype in GD is lack of player ability to keep that range. Due to player move speed cap, mobility skills CD restrictions,creep immunity to all CC effects and every mob running around with charge skills the range advantage of GD gunslingers last for few seconds. As results “ranged” builds are indistinguishable from melee builds in playstyle.
Unless the core of the problem is deal with all you guys can offer is powercreep. Ranged suck? MOAR dmg. Not enough AoE? MOAR AoE dmg. creeps hits hard? Free armor for everyone in the most convinient way. Creeps still hit hard? Moar ADCTH.
Such “balancing” will end at everyone becaming casters that hit whole screen in AoE, leech full live in instant and don`t move around too much. Oh wait i just described a generic meta build from AoM release and it just get worse in FG. And its getting worse every patch.
This is true. The increased player mobility and enemy movespeed negated a lot of the feeling of being ranged you get earlier in the game. But without the enemy speed increase you’d be able to kite them forever.
Weaker damage and weaker aoe comes into play because of how they end up in enemies faces late game anyway. It’s not a simple nugget to crack
It’s a Deciever wearing TWO sets with Chaos synergy from BOTH masteries and it’s barely making it to be a build capable of farming 150-170 3 times in a duration of 3 blessings with 1 Vanguard Banner (golden standard for top builds).
It’s a good build from the point of view of how it neatly it was assembled, but if you compare it to current top builds it’s probably one of the saddest and weakest ones.
Well, what do you suggest? Power creep is inevitable, it’s ARPG that gets new content release every so often. When Crate tries to manually stop power creep it results in some very controversial nerfs. One example is actually ranged meta that was nerfed into the ground in AoM while monsters got new buffs and casters and melee got new and stronger toys. And now we have this thread where everybody agrees that Ranged sucks right now. But hey, at least your elemental Luminari Purifier-Gunslinger was stopped in its tracks. And all the other ranged builds wtih him.
[quote]This is true. The increased player mobility and enemy movespeed negated a lot of the feeling of being ranged you get earlier in the game. But without the enemy speed increase you’d be able to kite them forever.
Weaker damage and weaker aoe comes into play because of how they end up in enemies faces late game anyway. It’s not a simple nugget to crack[/quote]
Its an easy nugget to crack, just let the player play the game, rather that throw the game in the player face.
Rah’binger has always been my favourite build, but I can’t disagree with any of this. Two sets that work perfectly together, great class synergy, incredible buffs and massive RR. And yet, it’s not even close to what meta builds can do.
I don’t want to rub salt in the wound, because I actually always wanted to make that Deceiver ever since Rah’Zin was announced. But. This is not even close some of the meme specs that I have assembled, like Cold Blade Arc Blademaster (zero dedicated items) or Fire/Vitality Defiler (dedicated set, but Defiler with two types of damages). This is how sad Chaos and ranged are. Together they synergize with more sadness it seems, lol.
Youre thinking with builds rather that archtypes. OFC ranged suck cause we cant take advantage of our range. You play crucible a lot, you know, the best way to deal with “content” is to stick to it`s face and try to not move too far away to avoid charge triggering and long range nukes. Heck, even bodyblocking was removed from the game, now all we can do is dance around balcony on like 5 metre area.
This need to change. Rather that meaningless dmg numbers.
I am all for it, but I honestly don’t know what to do. I have said multiple times that monsters are ok and endgame is sufficiently difficult and if there are some obvious 5 minute outliers - fix them, but instead difficulty is getting bumped, old Nemeses got buffed, player’s damage got nerfed and it’s all chaos again. Instead of actual Chaos which is still mediocre even with its best specs.
Honestly, all of my top builds that I have put hours and hours into - minmaxing and squeezing out everything out of them are always on the edge of becoming incosistent with the next patch. Like god forbid you enter Crucible or Shards with an underoptimezed spec with low synergy - you will get your face kicked inside your helmet faster than you can say “Deadbuilds”.
And before I remember when you posted (like you, personally, Ptiro) build with low DA or low armor and said “DA is just a number” and you could still pilot it and everything was fine.
Chaos isn’t in good state as damage type, not only as ranged. But when you build chaos 2h build and see numbers like 30k or even more WD and wow what a monster But nope, in reality it sucks. But concept is still cool and mixing 2 damages is sexy.
But as @Ptirodaktill pointed ranged in GD is basically being melee with pistols/gun in your hand. But considering GD combat mechanics, I think it’s impossible to change it, that’s why we are proposing more damage
. In my opinion, Valdun’s needs a rework being a Cadence set that gives WPS?? Skill points are really lacking on that set.
But nope, in reality it sucks. But concept is still cool and mixing 2 damages is sexy.