Ranged characters, ranged nukes and how to balance the game

Though I generally try to avoid using terms such as “meta” (let’s face it, GD is not a MOBA) there are indeed forces that crystalize preferences within the playerbase toward opting for one playstyle instead of another that must be acknowledged. Historically, from B30 to 1.0.0.4. it was DW shadow strike/execution builds that represented the “meta”, while 1.0.0.5.-1.0.0.8 was the era of S&B characters. Today, one might argue, is the era of CDR caster builds, since they excel at dealing high AoE damage and (therefore) farming the Crucible in a reliable manner. There was, however, no point in time in which ranged builds dominated the build compendium and while this situation should be avoided at all costs, it is also important to look at the facts and address their possible shortcomings in order to maintain the wonderful evolution course build viability has exhibited in the last few months. To do that, of course, would require us to be as objective as possible, disconnecting our analysis from the desire to make skill “X” OP because we are in love with it or we happen to have a character on our hands that would massively benefit from the buffs. With this being said, let us start with the facts:

FACT 1 : For 60% of the game (i.e. Veteran + Elite), ranged builds are superior to melee characters and casters. This is mostly because they are subject only to ambient damage, a fact which allows the player to maximize dps without having to pay close attention to his defensive stats. Starting with late Elite, however, ranged builds (especially riflemen) start to fall off. Why is that ? Well, I believe there are mainly three reasons for that:

a) Their damage output is not high enough to destroy big charging enemies in due time (e.g. Aether Hulks, Colossi). This means that even shotgun builds will have to take hits and, given the fact that most ranged characters will use medium armour, those hits will hurt… a lot.
b) All mobs have increased speed in Ultimate and increased resistances to CC. Suddenly, ranged characters are thus forced to rethink their strategy for avoiding damage because not only Hero Mobs can’t be frozen or slowed/confused anymore, but they take steroids which makes them 15-20% faster.
c) Deflection. Most important mobs (i.e. heroes, nemeses) have 19% deflection on Ultimate, but only around 8% dodge chance. While this may not seem important, it results in a massive Dps loss because ranged characters have to battle not only increased resistance and armour, but also DEFLECTION.

Suggestion : While gun damage can be tweeked either through increased AS or increased base damage and mob CC resistance can be reduced I do NOT believe these options are good for the game.

The fact that bosses and nemeses are massively resistant to CC should remain in place and the same disparity should be maintained between 2h melee weapons and rifles / crossbows when it comes to base damage. Deflection chance, however, can be addressed, lowering the percentage to a more “humane” 10%. The downside, ofc, would be that caster P-Blades builds will become even stronger if this is implemented and we don’t want that! Therefore, if deflection chance decreases, the +2P-blade bonus given by the Demonslayer set would have to be reduced to +1. This will maintain the DPS, while helping all ranged builds in return. Is not like caster P-blades need 8 f*****g blades – they can already face-tank everything and destroy the dummy in less than 20 seconds.

FACT 2: There are very few ranged nukes. In fact, there are no ranged nukes except for Cadence and the active ability granted by Oleron’s Blood. Problem is…there are few defensive options available to a ranged character, so most players can’t afford to take Oleron’s Blood. The fact that Cadence is the ONLY ranged nuke available through the masteries creates, however, other unfortunate consequences. One of them, for example, is the fact that that poison Witchblade is superior to ranged poison WH because Cadence amplifies all flat DoTs you stack through gear and devotions to astronomical levels. All that, while providing exactly the same damage output as a 3s CD 26/26 P-blades shotgun.

Suggestion: There is no need to nerf Cadence. If anything, scaling at ultimate levels could be adjusted such that 26/16 is 460% WD or 450% instead of 500%. The problem is not Cadence, however, but the fact that the alternative for ranged nukes is mostly CD P-Blades or skills that are ranged-independent - and thus – better with CDR shields or caster off-hands. Let’s take a moment and look at the items we got in AoM. We have a lot of ranged items that buff Amarasta’s Blade burst (bad skill), a lot of items that buff Fire Strike by giving extra WD or +% burn and even items that buff Primal Strike. There is no item that decreases base CD on P-Blades. Even a -0.2-0.3 s would be enough given the fact that comparable damage skills (e.g. Shadowstrike) have inherent CD reduction modifiers within the Nightblade mastery. Should I also remind all that even S&B builds have the privilege of CD reduction nukes now, since there are two sets that give flat reduction to Blitz (Krieg + Mythical Justicar), as well as a nice relic (Korvaak) that basically acts as a second blitz?

      Our analysis, however, should not stop here. First, I pointed out that 20% of your dps would already be negated by deflect chance. As such, having 6 P-blades means you actually have only 5 in reality. For casters this is not a big problem, because you can easily reach 200% cast speed or comparable values and your ADctH sustain is, more or less, constant. The Demonslayer set further gives you another 2 blades …CD P-blades on the other hand – they have borderline zero support (it is actually 0 but I am being nice here). 

What I suggest is simple: taking deflect into account, the broad damage spectrum (1/3 cunning +2/3 spirit), as well as lack of real item support, I believe some rifles or items should at least pretend to support this underdeveloped and underused skill that is CD P-Blades. Mythical Silverbolt, for example, could easily have a -0.3 or even -0.2s cooldown reduction to P-blades. Another badly designed item – the Venomlance – could also have such skill modifier instead of the sub-par passive proc that does borderline nothing in Ultimate. In fact, being designed as a WH weapon, I would happily trade the +10% AS for a -0.3s reduction if the proc stays because you would most probably use it in conjunction with ABB, which does not scale off your attack speed.

           For Primal Strike and Fire Strike, however, things are different. These skills, have an inherent AoE nature to them, so the approach should be different. The Mythical Raka’Jax, for example, has the right idea, viz. amplify the electrocute DoT of PS. The Ulzuin Flamespreader, however, does NOT. 18% WD to a skill that deals max 125% is not a big boost. Realistically, it represents somewhere around 1k-2k dps increase. Indeed, it is an increase, but when you look at how bad the Ulzuin set performs from a defensive perspective, you realize it doesn’t make you a glass cannon, it makes you just glass. Better take Hellborne instead. I’m not a fan of big, broad changes, of course, but maybe what the set needs – if it is indeed designed as a glass-cannon set, that is – is an active, big %WD active skill instead of more AoE. 

I said it before so I will emphasize it once more: ranged characters lack a big nuke. They need to kill big targets before those targets charge them and smashes them to dust. Burst melee builds have them in the form of Shadow Strike / Execution, S&B builds have them in the form of Blitz/ Cadence and Casters have several options at their disposal (Doom Bolt, shotgun skills like RE, Haggarad and Stun Jacks, Grenado, etc.). All these builds can also reposition themselves in a heartbeat by using mobility skills. Ranged characters have only Cadence and Oleron’s. CD P-Blades could be a big nuke, especially since it is a shotgun skill, but there is a massive disparity right now between how useful and well supported the casting variant is opposed to the cooldown one.

FACT 3: Ranged builds have poor defensive options.
Ask yourself this: “How do you survive as a ranged character?”. Most of the time is by using the very same defensive strategies melee and casters build use in order to face-tank. More articulately, you stack DA through the roof and ADctH, you overcap your resistances, you employ some circuit-breakers AND – most importantly – you make sure your armour absorption caps and your stun resistance is around the 80% value. This is not bad per se, of course, but because you can’t use a mobility skill with ranged weapons, you also have to make sure that:
a) your slow resistance is sufficiently high; and
b) your trap resistance is at least 60%.
Things are even more complicated when we factor freeze and petrify into the equation, as well as big “area denial” weapons like chaos and aether pools that mobs throw at you.

Suggestion: Unfortunately, there is no solution for the “no mobility skills on ranged characters problem”. Smart players will probably swap weapons and use either SS or Riftstones. Swaping, however, nullifies whatever aura you might put on your weapon so an inherent shortcoming will always be there. What I suggest is simple and basically comes down to:

a) Extending the amount of slow resistance you find on relics. Korvaak – primarily a S&B relic – is one of the only things in the game that gives you slow resistance with no downside. This creates a very interesting but sad situation in which heavy armour S&B characters end up more mobile than riflemen and Pyromancers take the relic just for the buffs even though they throw away 50% of what makes the relic special. The other items that give slow resistance are primarily trash legendary boots nobody actually uses because the boot slot is primarily reserved for stat sticks.

b) Decreasing the amount of slow effects some mobs apply to your character. This is straightforward. Is not like most characters besides gunmen will notice it or become suddenly OP.

c) Maintain current values for freeze, petrify, sleep and entrapment. The game is already pretty easy – the point is to address the inherent shortcomings of ranged characters, not to turn the game into a noob fest.

There are, of course, more things to talk about when it comes to ranged builds and how to align them to the other archetypes. Just for the record, I made several ranged builds capable of soloing Gladiator and even Ravager so they might be bad as a whole, but they are certainly not UP. Remember, the point is to address inherent imbalances present in the gameplay, not to make some item or skill OP and/or broken. DISCUSS !

If you have ranged builds capable of clearing Ravager then I’d like to see videos of that. I find it a bit hard to believe to be frank.

I don’t have videos and frankly I don’t find it entertaining at all. I mean, ppl post videos of 5 min Fevered Rage Ravager or 9 min DK beating the s**t out of him. Running around a tree for 30 minutes+, throwing poison bombs and spines while avoiding red projectiles is not that entertaining.

But still…

FACT 1 : For 60% of the game (i.e. Veteran + Elite), ranged builds are superior to melee characters and casters.

Superior in what exactly? Last time I checked, SS nightblade is the fastest build for game clearing. Heck, I don’t even bother leveling as ranged, cause it just too slow. Ranged gunner is the slowest possible leveling option in the game right now.

FACT 2: There are very few ranged nukes. In fact, there are no ranged nukes except for Cadence and the active ability granted by Oleron’s Blood. Problem is…there are few defensive options available to a ranged character, so most players can’t afford to take Oleron’s Blood. The fact that Cadence is the ONLY ranged nuke available through the masteries creates, however, other unfortunate consequences. One of them, for example, is the fact that that poison Witchblade is superior to ranged poison WH because Cadence amplifies all flat DoTs you stack through gear and devotions to astronomical levels. All that, while providing exactly the same damage output as a 3s CD 26/26 P-blades shotgun.

+1 to this.

I think what ranged characters lack the most is AoE clearing speed. Our poor gunners realy needs moar piercing options outside of aether rifle and two pistiols. Probably piercing belt? Or ring with pierce chanse?

I have to agree with Kane here - this is, frankly, pretty hard to believe at face value. Post a grimtools and/or video of you soloing glad and ravager (not just some screenshot that could have been from your dropping loot on the ground) if you really want your argument to hold weight here IMHO. Not really much to discuss here otherwise…

Superior in noobs playing them. I believe a big portion of balancing focuses only on Veteran / Elite because only around 5-10% of the playerbase actually reaches Ultimate and even less farm the Crucible.

But otherwise, you are 100% right about the Nightblade SS part…

It’s probably doable but not saying it’s easy. In vanilla Rifle Commando from a chinese guy beat Mogdrogen. I can think of one set atm that can beat Ravager

And Avatar if Dreeg, this was indeed an interesting read but why do you keep bringing up CD PB. I notice you mention it is underused well the only thing it’s good for is Bleed Builds and outside that there are far better nuke options

Oleron’s Might is something I’d call a decent ranged nuker.

I disagree on what you said about adjusting Cadence, why the heck would you suggest something like that out of the blue? It is a single target skill and it seems to be working as intended

I agree on Ulzuin being a glass canon set and the skill mod on flamespreader not being too impressive. Imo they should up the %WD to 65-70% and move the skill mod to set completion bonus
I do disagree with your assessment of the granted skill on the set as an AoE skill. That skill is useful in single target situations especially on large hitboxes. The values on the skill could be buffed a bit
Also the AoE nature of that skill is important as according to Fact 3 ranged defenses are essentially similar to Melee/Caster defenses so that AoE does indeed help you with surviving tough crowds. And the low radius of effect makes it perfect for 1v1 situations. The skill in it’s current state is great for shotgun situations

The Gladiator part - sure - in a couple of days. The Ravager part is impossible since you can’t battle him more than once with a character. A Chinese player killed Mogdrogen with a ranged commando - nobody questioned that.

WOW. So it’s not like there are not a lot of ppl on this forum that can confirm you that you can kill him with DoT poison builds…

@Ch’thon: Cadence is working as intended for single target damage and adjusting WD percent of the skill at ultimate levels will not result in massive dps loss for most of the builds. Thing is it scales of your attack speed so instead of nerfing it, it would indeed be better to buff other skills that can’t compete because they either have different scaling at comparable dps (CDR stacking is harder than AS stacking) or they can’t do meaningful single target damage at all.

About CD P-Blades, the thing is it scales of your weapon because it has WD% component so it is comparable to Cadence in the sense that in Ultimate, most of the lifting will be done by the WD component and crit multiplier. In terms of nuking capabilities, however, there are few better options for ranged characters even if they do not focus on bleed. If you use a melee weapon you wouldn’t go for P-Blades in the first place. A pierce shotgun Infiltrator, for example, can reach 70k / blade every 2.3 seconds. That is basically 120k dps if all the blades connect.

P.S. The “Discuss” part was about ranged builds and balance not the retarded Wendigo you battle in the woods.

You can beat him more than once. I expected you to use a different ranged build but I guess this one works assuming you’re not using illusions

Oh, all you need to do against ravager is to kite around goddamn altar for half-hour. Anyone can do it on SC after some time.

I can understand the logic behind buffing other skills but still don’t see why you need to nerf Cadence for that. I doubt it’d upset the balancing if Cadence is left as it is. I do agree shaving of a little %WD won’t do much but it seems unnecessary.

On the topic of ranged skills ABB pistols - Haggardian enforces should add some %WD to that skill
And I agree with Ptirodatkill, outside 100% Piercing and Inquisitor WPS we don’t have much options for AoE clear. I’d say Brimstone but that’s reserved for specific damage types

I think we all agree with Ptirodatkill and that’s exactly another reason I said CD P-Blades need adjustment. There are only four things that pierce: 1) Cadence; 2) P-Blades; 3) Vortex of Souls; 4) Inquisitor wps.

That Dagallon pistol also pierces, though I don’t believe it is in the item’s description. Giving piercing to everything is not the way to go ofc, but finding ways to increase AoE without unforeseen consequences should be addressed. ABB, for example, has massive item support in AoM, but it is still a trash skill.

Add that epic rifle to the list, hopefully they give us Mythical variant of it

Mythical WILL OF FATE !!! Coming in 1.0.0.4. :slight_smile:

This is outright not true. You can fight Ravager as much as you want, even after beating him.

Makes me doubt the veracity of your claims even further…

You’re not implying he is unbeatable with a ranged character are you? Cause that’d be wrong imo

I doubt it’s doable in any reasonable span of time without throwing countless bodies toward Rav.

I’de like to see non-transmuted/Pierce PBlades get some more love at endgame too - otherwise it may as well not exist.

I recently made a topic about changing the Unseeing Gaze set to include bonuses to PBlades (amongst other things) alongside the present bonuses to Blade Spirit to make it into a somewhat Pierce/Bleed CDR caster set as parts of the set (such as the large amount of CDR) suggest that it was designed for this and I think it could carve itself a nice niche.

You are right. I haven’t even tried that since the “missguidetly attack” option was missing. I see now that you have to click “How are you still alive ?” in order to battle him again. All for the better, but… I think we are beating a dead horse here. The Ravager, as a whole, is a one-dimensional battle. Every DoT build can ultimately defeat him as long as the player is not greedy and kites around the altar / trees for half an hour.

Furthermore, what reasons do I have to lie about this ? - it’s not like I said you can do it in 5 minutes or that it doesn’t involve a bland strategy (i.e. DoTs) or taking advantage of his poor AI. I haven’t even made guides since 1.0.0.4. so it’s not like I have some mental issue for saying it in order to boost my self-esteem. If people are that reluctant to believe it they can simply search google for poison builds that defeated him. There is even a poster here on the forum that killed Ravager with a vitality decay Ritualist in over 2 hours. It takes dedication but he did it…

I don’t really care about your reasons, I just think your first post’s final paragraph is nonsensical in more ways than one. If a build using a ranged weapon kills Ravager with DoTs, I wouldn’t consider that a Ranged Build, it’d just be some generic DoT caster build with one or two % Weapon Damage attacks.

That paragraph excuses the state of Ranged Weaponry when the current state is inexcusable. I mean, come out and say it: Ranged weapons, 1H/2H/DW, and ranged casters are laughably underpowered. They always have been. You gave reasons why (some of which I agree with, some of which I don’t, some of which I think miss the mark completely).

This just seems to be tip-toeing around the issue: