Reasonably powerful builds

[AetherStorm]

@Chthon

you are right with the build compendium you explained - but that was not my meaning at all

i wanted to say that in the build compendium are a number of builds missing - so my main reason at last post was that i want thanks @Zhuugus a lot because he/her is testing all the builds and have a good overview.

that was all ^^ so thanks again @Zhuugus

best regards

[Zhuugus]

I’ll be honest here. I saw your topic just a few minutes after you made it and I figured it was just an attempt to make your own build compendium, but I’m impressed at how far it’s evolved and how you’ve kept it updated with the seemingly “best of the best”.

I’m surprised myself!

My build uses it… Not on this list tho. 2H element forcewave tactician http://www.grimdawn.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64245

Someone already linked me your build. It’s in my queue for testing.

It seems Crate did it well, with bringing balance and diversity into their game (though there is a lot of work still - for example, ranged weapons still suck).
I also wanted to thank you for your great job!

Thanks! Yeah, ranged weapons suck in general, but there are 3 builds here that use pistols, that’s something.

I think it might be worth Zhug’s consideration to add a blurb towards the bottom detailing at least three categories. 1.) Fastest clear time winner (purely the fastest in the hands of a skilled players), patch to patch. 2.) Easiest to play/clear (or lazy/safe if you will, for the unskilled player) winner, patch to patch. 3.) Best pick for new player (or starting fresh veteran) to level up and focus on for gear collection, patch to patch (this category is for the players that are legit purists in regards to cheating or other game exploits).

I really don’t want to do this because it will advertise some builds and put others into shade. I want people to choose builds that bring them most fun, not the ones that I find slighly better performing. In my opinion 100% meta-thinking is evil. Games are made to have fun after all. With my testing I just ensure that the build is 100% working, even in hardest enviroment, so a person won’t be dissappointed in the end.

Heh, I wish that was the case, but actually only thing that happened in AoM is that player characters scaled much more from expansion upgrades than monsters, especially in crucible, thus cruci is not even a challenge any more especially if you use buffs and banners. Dont get me wrong, they did more than good work with all expansion content, new items, classes and stuff, but they somewhat failed in game difficulty scaling, even half decent builds can trash cruci w/o any issues now. In terms of raw power of the builds, game is more unbalanced than before AoM.

That’s one way to look at things. But let’s look at this the other way: before the AoM there were FAR less builds which could farm crucible, but was is good for the players? I think not. It forced people to pick specific builds with specific type of gameplay, which they very likely didn’t enjoy. In my opinion build variety must be prioritised, there are dozens of end-game builds possible, why should only chosen 10 be above all and narrow the choices?
Don’t forget, we are talking of end-game builds here. A person spends dozens of hours to make an end-game build, why shouldn’t it have the potential to crush everything when 100% geared? I believe the more such builds exist the better it is for the game and for the players.
New crucible will have it’s own opinion on who will be viable, we’ll get it before the New Year if I’m not mistaken. One can only dream how ruthless it would be!

[jajaja]

fairly certain that all the builds that can farm cruci without any buff/banner can do the new one with buffs.

it will still be an anti melee feast; and likely even more so. casters + s&B will still dominate by shear nature of being able to avoid/mitigate far too much dmg.

with the addtion of a5 mobs, there will be even more RR/shotgun/ground aoe that is strictly anti melee. i can already see it.
you talk about build variety, but atm, any caster build can throw together some half decently designed combo and make it work in cruci. the strong ones farm it easily without buffs.

somehow i feel like build variety becomes self defeating when just about any half decent build works in the hardest end game content. where the new standard has become crucible without buffs as a true test of a build, even tho its kind of pointless from farming perspective. its like purposely nerfing yourself because without it the game is too easy

[DaShiv]

it will still be an anti melee feast; and likely even more so. casters + s&B will still dominate by shear nature of being able to avoid/mitigate far too much dmg.

with the addtion of a5 mobs, there will be even more RR/shotgun/ground aoe that is strictly anti melee. i can already see it.

Melee is actually doing a lot better in AoM than they were in 1.0.1.1 (but not nearly as good as in the 1.0.0.6 days and before, obviously). For starters, there are FAR more Gladiator-capable DW builds now than previously in 1.0.1.1. Melee builds in general have been greatly helped by sets like Krieg and Korba with great mixes of offense/defense/skills, powerful new skill mods, and lots of new damage conversions, all of which have combined to add tons of new melee build options. If you’d have told me pre-AoM that the current top Crucible builds thread would be fairly evenly split between caster and melee builds, I’d been shocked.

The real losers of the 85-100 scaling have been pet builds. Not only did their existing skill stats and bonuses barely scale, but their mythical sets are terrible, their mythical items barely gained any bonus increases, and their item skill modifiers are completely lackluster. The fact that even though Gladiator easier than it’s ever been, there’s still only 1 existing pet build currently capable of competitive Gladiator clear times at all – and even that one viable build is apparently too hard to play for many people – speaks volumes about how terribly pet builds are faring in Gladiator. We have more viable ranged builds for Gladiator than pet builds, and the massive AOE from Act 5/6 enemies in Crucible is going to hit pet builds way harder than melee builds.

Right now the Gladiator power rankings look something like:

caster > melee >> ranged > pets

In that context, melee isn’t doing too badly at all. I mean, your latest one can do a 3.5m clear, so…

[JoV]

That’s one way to look at things. But let’s look at this the other way: before the AoM there were FAR less builds which could farm crucible, but was is good for the players? I think not. It forced people to pick specific builds with specific type of gameplay, which they very likely didn’t enjoy. In my opinion build variety must be prioritised, there are dozens of end-game builds possible, why should only chosen 10 be above all and narrow the choices?
Don’t forget, we are talking of end-game builds here. A person spends dozens of hours to make an end-game build, why shouldn’t it have the potential to crush everything when 100% geared? I believe the more such builds exist the better it is for the game and for the players.
New crucible will have it’s own opinion on who will be viable, we’ll get it before the New Year if I’m not mistaken. One can only dream how ruthless it would be!

Yea I do agree it was the case, but pre AoM cruci was way tougher test for the builds, there was much less build options since you didnt had 2 new classes and bunch of gear that is available now and dont forget that so many builds were nerfed to the point of uselessness in pursue of never ending balancing.
Rest of things you are writing I wrote in like 1.0.0.7 and answer from developers was no, no build is supposed to crush game content, no mater of how many hours and effort invested in it. That’s plain wrong imho but its theirs game.
I dont even want to waste my time in making some builds that I know would work insane just because it would be nerfed in first next patch.
But again my original post was about balancing issues not variety issues, and like I said game is more unbalanced than ever.

Variety issue thing is well summarize in post from my friend and colleague:

fairly certain that all the builds that can farm cruci without any buff/banner can do the new one with buffs.

it will still be an anti melee feast; and likely even more so. casters + s&B will still dominate by shear nature of being able to avoid/mitigate far too much dmg.

with the addtion of a5 mobs, there will be even more RR/shotgun/ground aoe that is strictly anti melee. i can already see it.
you talk about build variety, but atm, any caster build can throw together some half decently designed combo and make it work in cruci. the strong ones farm it easily without buffs.

somehow i feel like build variety becomes self defeating when just about any half decent build works in the hardest end game content. where the new standard has become crucible without buffs as a true test of a build, even tho its kind of pointless from farming perspective. its like purposely nerfing yourself because without it the game is too easy

If you’d have told me pre-AoM that the current top Crucible builds thread would be fairly evenly split between caster and melee builds, I’d been shocked.

I dont know anything about pet build so cant comment on their current state but imho tread is evenly split only because in melee builds are included hybrid casters builds.

[MortalKombat]

I think it might be worth Zhug’s consideration to add a blurb towards the bottom detailing at least three categories. 1.) Fastest clear time winner (purely the fastest in the hands of a skilled players), patch to patch. 2.) Easiest to play/clear (or lazy/safe if you will, for the unskilled player) winner, patch to patch. 3.) Best pick for new player (or starting fresh veteran) to level up and focus on for gear collection, patch to patch (this category is for the players that are legit purists in regards to cheating or other game exploits).

No, it’s completely pointless and would require too much work for nothing. Clearing time for Gladiator Crucible is good enough sign of how high build’s offence is. Defence is harder to measure, and i think, just general description should be enough.

[mad_lee]

caster > melee >> ranged > pets

I am making a ranged build that I hope is going to prove otherwise. I am surprised that ranged meta hasn’t been established fully yet, everyone tries to make dual wielding chars when strength of ranged build imo is in 2handers with Hydra devotion and very high conversion.

[jajaja]

don’t know anything about pet builds so can’t comment. sry if u are shafted more than the rest :o

also i don’t count S&B as melee , most of them are cooldown based casters. they also have an overpowered ability to mitigate dmg which doens’t really show in easy count like current crucible. but when shit gets hard, like possible future cruci, as well as no buff cruci, the difference really shows.

while doing dmg has never been an issue for DW melee(ty god, but even then most DW melee only excel at single target), defense wise they really need to be well optimized - often involving multiple MI’s due to their squishy nature and needing to standing still to dps. there are usually big trade offs we must make to balance offense/defense. where a caster is avoiding most of the damage by default and don’t need to care so much about it.

2H melee is in an even worse spot than dw melee, and like jov said the ones that are viable are mostly hybridized casters. / cooldown based builds.

my definition of melee is builds that primarily LMB while sitting place, this very fact makes it 10x harder in crucible with so much fumble pools/ground aoe/disruption pools etc. which benefits cooldown based attacks much more as u can stutter step to get out of quickly stacking up ground shit

[MortalKombat]

my definition of melee is builds that primarily LMB while sitting place, this very fact makes it 10x harder in crucible with so much fumble pools/ground aoe/disruption pools etc. which benefits cooldown based attacks much more as u can stutter step to get out of quickly stacking up ground shit

Well, fumble/impaired aim itself is extremely strong anti-attack mechanics. If attack build and caster build have the same DPS without Fumble, with it attack build will lose up to 50% DPS, while caster’s DPS remains the same. It’s a big difference.

I see nothing wrong in “hybrid” builds, that use not just LMB attacks, but also some spells. Caster builds also can use attack skills to improve their performance (get mobility, energy leech, etc).

Disruption pool can be countered to certain degree with Skill Disruption resist. Damaging pools can be countered with high resistance/resist overcap and great life leech. And it doesnt make a major difference between melee and casters - cause all have to change their position from time to time.

What disturbs me, is that ranged weapon builds are so weak, that there is only ONE build that managed to nominate for this thread. And summoners are in even worse place - NONE managed to nominate so far. While for casters/melee, there are 10+ nominated builds, for each.

[Chthon]

2H melee is in an even worse spot than dw melee, and like jov said the ones that are viable are mostly hybridized casters. / cooldown based builds.

Did you both forget about DoT builds or do you guys just don’t like them because they’re too cheesy?

[Superfluff]

Did you both forget about DoT builds or do you guys just don’t like them because they’re too cheesy?

Probably. 2h full DoT is not really melee. You don’t need to expose yourself by standing still all the time. This was sort of offset by making items such as Bloodrager or Avenger medium armor

[Chthon]

Probably. 2h full DoT is not really melee. You don’t need to expose yourself by standing still all the time. This was sort of offset by making items such as Bloodrager or Avenger medium armor

Not that
I was referring to the part about viability. They both said only CDR Casters and Hybrids can do it but DoT builds can do it as well.

I didn’t know Avenger was crucible viable. I haven’t seen anything beyond the weapon and the belt on that set. Didn’t even know it was for bleed :rolleyes:

[Superfluff]

Didn’t even know it was for bleed :rolleyes:

God knows what the set is for. Was just giving a similar example:D anyway i misunderstood the post

[jajaja]

God knows what the set is for. Was just giving a similar example:D anyway i misunderstood the post

tried it for 2h physical savagery with crit/upheaval focus.

then realize upheaval dont even work on main target. facepalmslashthreadhashtagquitlife

[Zhuugus]

Right now the Gladiator power rankings look something like:

caster > melee >> ranged > pets

In that context, melee isn’t doing too badly at all. I mean, your latest one can do a 3.5m clear, so…

What disturbs me, is that ranged weapon builds are so weak, that there is only ONE build that managed to nominate for this thread. And summoners are in even worse place - NONE managed to nominate so far. While for casters/melee, there are 10+ nominated builds, for each.

I totally agree with these statements. This is the real promlem.
We can argue if casters and shieldbearers are better than DW and which are easier to play, but they are all fine if we compare their state and state of ranged&pet builds.
I believe the reason to this is survivability. Everyone are forced to take lots of melee hits, there are massive hero waves (for example 135 and 148), there are Iron Maiden and Fabius, thare are disgusting mutators. Durability is tested pretty hard. Some class combinations have access to big chunks of damage mitigation via skills supported by gear and others simply don’t.
Not even remotively fair. Yeah, my sentence about good balancing was not well thought Anyway, I am happy even with what we have now, I’m convinced the game is improving with time.

I am making a ranged build that I hope is going to prove otherwise. I am surprised that ranged meta hasn’t been established fully yet, everyone tries to make dual wielding chars when strength of ranged build imo is in 2handers with Hydra devotion and very high conversion.

I wish you good luck. The future of ranged builds depends on you. Don’t let them down!

[mad_lee]

I wish you good luck. The future of ranged builds depends on you. Don’t let them down!

How about putting my CT sorc in at least honoroable mentions instead

[Onmastikon]

Still-newb here, trying to get the hang of things. Your thread is very helpful! May I ask?

1. I notice there is no battlemage build at all listed here - is that because I look at skills and not at devotions? I would have imagined that mirror + maiven + menhir + overguard would make for great defense, add spells and Time Dilution for goodness = fail?
2. Also see that nobody uses Commando to throw bombs / traps while remaining shield-tanky – Demolitionist looks so fun as caster, but people only seem to use it for Flame Touched. Me fool?

Thanks

[MortalKombat]

I totally agree with these statements. This is the real promlem.
We can argue if casters and shieldbearers are better than DW and which are easier to play, but they are all fine if we compare their state and state of ranged&pet builds.
I believe the reason to this is survivability. Everyone are forced to take lots of melee hits, there are massive hero waves (for example 135 and 148), there are Iron Maiden and Fabius, thare are disgusting mutators. Durability is tested pretty hard. Some class combinations have access to big chunks of damage mitigation via skills supported by gear and others simply don’t.
Not even remotively fair. Yeah, my sentence about good balancing was not well thought Anyway, I am happy even with what we have now, I’m convinced the game is improving with time.

I wish you good luck. The future of ranged builds depends on you. Don’t let them down!

No, survivability is hardly a reason. Yes, S&B tanks feel good, but builds without shield can also be very tanky. Take my Forcewave Witchblade, for example - tanky as fuck, despite using 2-h weapon. DW/2h melee, casters with offhands - all feel fine in endgame.
The real problem of ranged builds is DPS.
Yes, their DPS simply SUCKS.
Ranged weapons have much weaker base damage, less AoE, and so on. So, they cant invest as much into defence as melee/casters can, if they do it, their clear speed will be shit.
To fix this issue, DPS & stats for ranged weapons/skills should be buffed. Sure, they should deal less DPS than melee, but the difference shouldnt be so drastical (considering how enemies and game encounters are designed)! Also, some sort of extra armor piercing for ranged weapons should be added (a constellation like Blades of Nadaan, or some component, maybe), so pierce ranged builds wont be pigeonholed into very few legendaries with 100% AP, or rares with Sinister prefix.

Not sure about summoners, but i suspect, the main problem is itemization and minion scaling. Also, in Crucible, there is so much ground AoE littering floor, that AI-controlled minions will simply die in seconds (because they dont have brains to get out of it). And i’m afraid, that buffing minions to the level when they will be able to facetank that AoE, will mean that summoners will be absolutely retardedly powerful.
Crucible isnt designed for summoners, it’s cold sad fact. That’s why they suck in it badly.

Still-newb here, trying to get the hang of things. Your thread is very helpful! May I ask?

1. I notice there is no battlemage build at all listed here - is that because I look at skills and not at devotions? I would have imagined that mirror + maiven + menhir + overguard would make for great defense, add spells and Time Dilution for goodness = fail?
2. Also see that nobody uses Commando to throw bombs / traps while remaining shield-tanky – Demolitionist looks so fun as caster, but people only seem to use it for Flame Touched. Me fool?

Thanks

Well, a strong build should have both good defence AND good offence.

Battlemage is an interesting combination, and can be used as variation for many other builds. After all, MOST builds use ONE mastery as “primary” (with main DPS skills in it), and another - as “secondary”, that provides support with few buffs/debuffs.

[JoV]

Still-newb here, trying to get the hang of things. Your thread is very helpful! May I ask?

1. I notice there is no battlemage build at all listed here - is that because I look at skills and not at devotions? I would have imagined that mirror + maiven + menhir + overguard would make for great defense, add spells and Time Dilution for goodness = fail?
2. Also see that nobody uses Commando to throw bombs / traps while remaining shield-tanky – Demolitionist looks so fun as caster, but people only seem to use it for Flame Touched. Me fool?

Thanks

If you dont mind me answering this:

1. Trouble with batlemages was never tankines, but dmg output, you can make unkilable batlemage easily but it will be somewhat mediocre in terms of dps. Tho Im familiar with one batlemage setup before AoM that was able to reliably farm crucible.

2. BWC/bomber shield commando is still top tier cruci farmer, I say still because there are so many pre AoM setups for that type of build. Since AoM didnt brought any drastic change to those builds updating any of them is easy so you could try some of them.

Yes, their DPS simply SUCKS.

There are ranged builds that are dishing much more dmg than most casters and even some melee builds, dps is not an issue on them, survivalbility options/tankines is.

[mad_lee]

Ranged builds based on Inquisitor have ridiculous DPS, what are you talking about, guys. Survivability is pretty good too due to a lot of heals/circuit breakers/shieds that inquisitor ranged builds can offer.