Currently retaliation damage does not effect ranged enemies or those who cast spells (to the best of my knowledge). Because of this, a pure retaliation build becomes extremely annoying and/or useless against ranged enemies making progression into Ultimate very difficult. However, that difficulty isn’t necessarily indicative of an inferior build, only demonstrative of a flaw in the games design in relation to that build. To remedy this, I propose the introduction of a passive obtainable in the constellation which would reduce player damage by 50% but enable retaliation damage to work against ranged enemies.
I do not feel that such a change would be a hindrance to the game in any way and would allow for a 95% viable build to truly shine. The 50% reduction in player damage would also prevent the passive from becoming a ‘must have’ for other, more traditional builds.
Thoughts? If this idea has been proposed and discredited then I apologize, I searched but could not find a suggestion like this.
That is a totally different damage type, not at all in line with what the build is designed for - and given the amount of +retaliation passives on both items and in the constellation it certainly seems as though retaliation SHOULD be viable. In short, it is akin to someone realizing in Ultimate that Fire damage doesn’t work vs a high % of the enemy base and the remedy suggested is ‘do another kind of damage’.
Further ‘reflect’ works on both ranged and melee - which begs the question, why can’t retaliation? And, at any rate, while I appreciate your reply it in no way addresses the actual recommendation I made.
It doesn’t reflect the initial damage, but the damage dealt. Then this minor portion it’s further reflected back to mobs which typically got resistances. To make it worse it’s also hard to stack.
It could be pretty effective if you run around with negative resistances and very low DA, though.
Well, reflect would be rendered useless if retaliation would return damage to ranged users… then all you would have to do is run through everything.
There is a reason for two mechanics… what you would need to do with a retaliation build, is get some reflect damage to deal with the ranged units.
If they did what you suggested, what is the point of reflect? It would just make the character overpowered, since all you would have to do is build up retaliation, armor, and just stand there.
And when retaliation damages can get to the 100k, that is still 50k damage to ranged. Why would that be implemented when there needs to be a balance, which is reflect in this instance.
This suggestion is to make a retaliation build viable, to accomplish this I suggested a passive which would come with a severe consequence as rational for allowing retaliation to work vs ranged damage - I wrote nothing about reflect, and as mentioned by a user previously the reflect mechanic itself isn’t that viable an option.
Beyond that though, I do not understand why its bad that I could then just ‘run through everything’ there are a lot of builds that melt the screen… why not one more?
There is a build, I believe it is focused on poison/acid retaliation and using the set that is made for that. True. I’d rather it be possible for such builds to be viable without dependence on a particular set of armor.
Unless reflect has been changed recently, that is not true. Reflect takes place before the target’s mitigations, which means you will receive the attempted damage and not the dealt damage. Reflected damage you receive will only be reduced by your own mitigations.
Wasn’t trying to be dismissive, but given that the topic is dealing with Retaliation damage as a mechanic, I do not want to discuss an entirely different damage type.
My main question involves my passive idea and what people think of it. But since nobody has actually commented on that part yet I guess it must be a pretty poor idea!
It appear you are right. I’ve always been under the impression reflect is so bad due to this reason, and in addition it was the way it worked in PoE. So yeah, confused.
Now I have to find the true reason why it sucks that bad once again :eek:
the high mobs’ resistances and HP, and the inability to stack high amounts of it, obviously
Yeah and that is why I thought of this issue, it seems odd to me that they have a damage type where a % of the enemies are totally immune to it and there isn’t a way for the player to circumvent it. No ability allows my chosen type of damage to be effective.
I think retaliation/reflect should just be integrated into another mastery where it can be used as a first-class mechanic, and then retaliation builds would just look for that mastery. Right now retaliation is all over the place and I think spread a bit too thin given that it’s a fairly limited style of build and it’s hard to balance right.
I wouldn’t be against some wonky modifiers in the devotion tree, but we also want to be careful with that because the game turning into “pick a wonky devotion tree point and build around it” would suck, and that kinda happened to PoE for a while.
I get you want to steamroll the content without lifting a finger. This is what makes retaliation builds fun but at the same time there has to be some drawback.
I would probably consider Bolvar on Ultimate to be the hardest to deal with for retaliation builds, but this can be dealt with if you have a few alternate skills. Rather than trying to promote ranged damage retaliation.
