skills without weapon damage

Grim Dawn Ideas and Feedback
41

LONG TEXT ALERT, NO TLDR

I sort of agree. Weapon damage skills do scale a lot better, than flat damage ones. However, considering the synergies they do a lot of damage. PRM was a pretty good build in B30 IIRC. And you made a CT build, granted it relied on certain items and gimmicks to work.

What I think is this, and it seems to be fairly true - casters rely on certain item combinations and gimmicks to work, whereas WD skills ex. Soldier and Shaman don’t really have to do much to make it work, they already do a crazy amount of base damage as it is, and gear just makes them better.

What I’m really asking is - is WD% components to spells really the best solution? Couldn’t there be a better one? I don’t know how to exactly make this work. For example you can look at WoW.

You have Weapon Damage, Attack Power and Spell Power. Casters have nothing to do with Weapon Damage, all their spells are based on Spell Power. Similarly, melee characters and Hunters, have spells based on both Attack Power and WD. They are all somewhat balanced.

What’s probably needed is not spells based on WD, because that’s a very easy fix that may or may not have a disastrous effect on scaling. What’s needed is a linear scaling for attributes. Currently attributes provide passive damage boosts for Physical/Pierce/Elemental damage. What if they instead provided something akin to Attack/Spell Power, and let all spells scaled with aforementioned stat.

This would allow stats to be important, and at the same time allow proper scaling with leveling. At this point, Physique is so good that everybody wants to take it, but casters have to use Spirit not only to equip gear but also to do decent damage, which leads to some bad consequences. Honestly the problem really is with Physique, because most monsters do physical damage, therefore phys resist, and therefore additionally Physique is much too important for any class. Imagine a class that could completely dump points into Spirit, and some into Cunning(for OA) and still do Ultimate with a reasonable amount of kiting/CC.

Instead of applying WD to all spells, you could simply add a Spell Power/Attack Power component, which is benefited through one or more attributes, change gear to properly itemize those, and call it a day. Although this would somehow lead to Diablofication of stats, I think a reasonable balance could somehow lead to a more cohesive and balanced framework.

Sorry for the managerial talk - I’m a manager and that’s how I roll :frowning:

I sort of agree. If you look at physical damage itemization, I think this is what exactly the devs got wrong(IMO), that they knew that WD skills would do too much damage and therefore itemization wasn’t particularly readily available, while casters didn’t do that much damage and itemization was readily available. This allowed a weird sort of playstyle where casters could equip all sorts of gear and do decent damage, but they required extreme gimmicks to be really good, whereas WD characters had really bad gear, but could equip sub standard gear with gimmicks that made them more than viable.

This was not how it is in D3, because of power creep and how certain sets were simply better than legendaries.

I don’t disagree with your solution. I just think there’s a more unique way to do it i.e spell power, just that it would require a lot more redesign than adding a WD component to spells would, but on the other hand it would lend to a sort of uniqueness to casters i.e they would rely on flat damage boosted by “Spell Power” rather than WD.

There’s also the Resist Reduction problem. If what you say is true i.e Resist Reduction only works on WD skills, then that may require a redesign of the game engine or at least the design policies as well i.e resist reduction also works against flat damage types, which btw would also massively affect dual wielding classes as they rely considerably on flat damage.

42

Yes adding a new attack power like stat similar to WoW’s would do it but that’s a MUCH larger change set and effort than simply rebalancing the 8-10 non-WD% skills to be in terms of WD. Also the attack power change wouldn’t necessarily (it might) fix the quirky mechanics with things like lifesteal, some devotion procs, flat damage, etc, not applying to non-WD skills in a confusing manner for new players.

43

I completely agree, considering the small design team here at GD, WD component based redesign is probably the most efficient solution. It may not however be the most unique solution, which is how GD could be different and better than other games of the same genre.

44

Not really, you’re either adopting a solution similar to WoW or similar to D3. Doesn’t matter to me, I just want to avoid the unequal playing field we have now in terms of stats/devotions applying to skills and the balance issues where the dev’s buff a non-WD% skill and its fine for a build or two but then new gear comes out and the WD% skills get a lot better and the non-WD% are dumpster again like they are now.

45

What I’m trying to say is, GD could implement either the WD route or the AP/SP route, but their treatment of either routes will be very different as we’ve seen in the itemization and skill design. That way it’s a unique design. Maybe my statements need to be corrected to reflect that, but too lazy :expressionless:

46

Good thread, I’ve been meaning to speak up about this myself.
Long ass post incoming.

I’ve had 2 self-found PRM builds on HC, one died at 82 and the other is my current char at 85 and he has beat most of the content in the game.
My 2 cents about the current issue and about PRM:
[u][b]

  1. PRM has too many damage types[/b][/u]
    Most strong builds focus on 1 or 2 damage types typically, PRM has 5 possible (Fire, Cold, Lightning, Aether, Electrocute).
    A major problem that comes with this is the Elemental damage type: it’s hard to boost compared to other types but there is no compensation to make up for that.
    For example, the single elements typically get 180% (100 + 80) for 2 nodes from the highest tier devotions.
    But when you look at Blind Sage, the top Elemental cluster, it takes you 4 nodes to get that 180% (3 * 100% single elements + the 80% node).

This means that you either get less per investment (of skill points, devotion points, items, whatever) = harder to gear and also lower returns on top of that.
More damage types isn’t good because it means you have to spread thin both your +damage bonuses and -res effects.

2) Too many creatures resist Aether damage
Pretty much every non-undead Aether creature highly resists it or is immune to the damage type.
Once you’ve played an Aether build, you’ll become very familiar with which creatures those are.
I’m not sure, but I think Aether is the only damage type that has this weakness in such prevalence.
Not exclusive to PRM, but another strike against it.

3) Supercharged is Superbad
This link to PRM is very weak: even at rank 12 and maxed Elemental Balance, you’ll typically get ticks for 500-800 damage, this is negligible in Ultimate.
The reason for this is problem #1: Electrocute bonuses come with Lightning damage items, not with Elemental damage ones.

The end result is that having so many damage types, and the Ele damage type itself (which is an inherent weakness in its current state) means it’s very tricky to gear a PRM character.

4) The WD issue
As others have pointed out, having no WD means skills don’t scale as well as ones that do have it.
No WD also means some -resistance options are blocked from you, such as Mark of Dreeg. Especially because PRM has so many damage types, it’d really benefit from -all resistances, but instead the player is limited to a few damage types from skills such as Arcane Bomb.

You don’t get much more than -30 to -50% res to 2-3 damage types (when PRM deals 5), while a NB char can get over -100% Pierce res: just this alone means the latter deals over double the damage outright in some cases.

Furthermore, no WD also means no native leech, which indirectly lowers your damage as well: the less you have to move due to sustainability, the more time you have to attack.

5) Spell builds are inherently harder to gear than WD ones
Related to #4, this might be somewhat less obvious, but the issue is there even from early game: once a WD character starts falling behind, you can spend 5-20 mins shopping a new weapon. Even a simple “Superior X of Alacrity” updated to your current character level will carry it for the next X levels handily.

Casters on the other hand, aren’t that easy to fix.
In the early game, you’re either running with a weapon with some cast speed or bonus damage to your damage type, or the lowest level faction weapon.
There is no good way to shop for a better weapon, at most you’re gaining ~5-30% DPS from a better shopped weapon.
Compare that to a WD character, where a level appropriate weapon with decent mods can pretty much double their damage.

This issue is even more egregious in the late game: once you’ve maxed all skills related to your spell and have decent items in every slot, your damage simply stops rising completely. The only way to increase it is to get the specific Legendaries that work for that build, but if you don’t trade/cheat those are hard to come by.

This stagnation is a direct consequence of many of the above issues: there are simply fewer ways to boost spell-based damage compared to WD builds: the weapon factor isn’t there, fewer -res options, no double attacks from DW, no WPS, and so on.

Which brings me to my next point:

6) No WPS or equivalent is crippling
In this game, all the best damage builds are based around procs, there are virtually no exceptions. Procs from skills, devotions and items all contribute to those sub-15 second speed kills on tough bosses.

So for spells not to have WPS or an equivalent thereof, is another strike against them.

Compare your average NB build: a well-geared one will pretty much always release a WPS with every swing, and the base attack itself is improved as well (from Shard of Beronath, Fire Strike, and so on).
You can link a devotion to the main attack and also to your best WPS, which means you can have up to 4+ effects from 1 click.

A spell with a single devotion linked to it simply can’t compete with that, because you’re literally getting half the effects.

7) Iskandra’s Elemental Exchange doesn’t synergize with caster builds
I’m aware of the flavor text that its design is intended to be for warriors, but it’s strange how the main caster class’ main active buff line pretty much doesn’t benefit casters at all.
This is also a beginner trap: people not familiar with the mechanics will put points into it thinking it boosts their spells, when it in fact, doesn’t.

8) Many caster items don’t seem to have +OA
Outside of the Clairvoyant set and that one armor with 5% OA, I have the feeling that many caster items don’t give much or any OA at all, which is illogical because even as a caster you need OA to hit and crit.
This problem isn’t unique to caster items though: for example, the Markovian set has the same problem, but it’s designed as a defensive set.

This might be a remnant early design facet where Crate believed that casters get spell damage, and warriors get OA, but that just doesn’t work anymore.

So what can be done about all these issues?

A) Lack of damage
I don’t think putting WD on every skill would be the answer, that would make them too similar. But as the problem is that caster builds lack damage and scaling potential in the late game, the obvious option is to simply increase the base damage values on the higher ranks of spells, especially of the ultimate ranks.

Spells are decent early-mid game but they tend to fall off when you start late Elite or early Ultimate, this is where increased numbers would give them that extra oomph and also make them easier to scale.
Doing so would alleviate almost all of the problems instantly.

B) Lacking -res options
This is not necessarily a major issue since -res is often OP to begin with, but coupled with all the other issues, it’s another strike against casters.

An easy way to solve this would be to give IEE some -res. The flavor text says it "absorbs arcane energy from foes to return it as elemental damage."
How about stripping some of the enemy resistances because of the drained arcane energy?
Or simply allow this skill to benefit casters, by turning one of the WD benefiting affixes into a % spell damage bonus, which would address point #7 as well.

C) Lack of WPS and multiple hits
As said above, spells are the only attack type that don’t give you multiple duplicated attacks with one click.
Weapons can be dual-wielded for a chance of a double attack, they can proc WPS and those WPS have multiple hit attacks as well (Volley, Mutilate, etc.)

To compete with this, I’d like to see spells redesigned so that they at least have a chance to hit a target multiple times with one click at higher skill investment.
PRM’s shards could shotgun at close range (has a risk-reward factor), Trozan’s could gain additional projectiles at higher ranks, etc.

Giving spells their own unique effects would keep them unique, I feel that would be a better solution to giving every spell WD and allowing them to proc WPS, etc.

D) Lacking itemization
The higher end caster items and sets could really do with a looking over.
The aforementioned missing OA is a major issue, but some items are simply undesirable to begin with.

An example:

Frostdread Cuirass Light Armor
825 Armor

35% Cold Resistance
22% Vitality Resistance
50% Reduced Freeze Duration
+46% Cold Damage
+46% Frostburn Damage
6 Cold Damage
+3% Health
+3.2 Energy Regenerated per second
+30 Defensive Ability
+3 to Amarasta’s Blade Burst
+2 to Star Pact

Grants Skill: Frostdread Presence (Level 1)
Unleash the chill that dwells within your frozen heart, infusing your weapons with life-sapping chill. This effect is extended to nearby allies. This ability must be toggled to maintain its effect.
345-686 Cold Retaliation
20% Chance of 2 Seconds of Freeze Retaliation
12 Cold Damage
+150 Energy Reserved

15 Meter Radius
35 Energy Cost
3 Active Energy Cost per Second

This is a level 75 item but it doesn’t offer anything an end game caster would want (Cast speed, -res, large damage bonuses, etc.)
Seeing more +class skill bonuses on items such as this or on the sets that currently don’t have them would make them significantly better.
Because casters don’t have a big weapon to scale off, getting more +skill bonuses as compensation would be useful.

Another idea is to allow spells to always hit (crit will still be based on OA).
This will set them apart from attacks and give them their own unique bonus to compensate for lack of WPS.

I could go on and on but my point is, I think the above touches on most of the issues why there is such a big discrepancy between caster and WD builds.

47

This is 100% true. I am not talking here from the perspective of a player who watched just cherry picked youtube videos or played only 500-1000 hours in GD. For those who wander how bad damage types like chaos and aether are compared to pierce I will give you this:

On my Blademaster and Witch Hunter around +1000% to pierce is sufficient to destroy Fabius in less than 10 seconds. Granted, those characters also stack +% damage to humans. However, to obtain the same result on a Doom Bolt Time Dilation build you need…wait for it… +1500% to vitality and +2500% to chaos, while having -107% debuff to vitality and -50% to chaos. This is how bad aether and chaos damage types (and casters generally) are compared to “assassin” builds that use skills such as Shadow Strike or Execution.

Furtheremore, those TD builds everybody screems to be nerfed are one-trick ponies. It took me aproximately 1500 hours to make them legitimately and I am also 100% sure that a new player will not be able to utilize them because they have a very high skill cap. By comparison, even my grandmother - who is 95 years old - can kill Fabius with my Blademaster… case closed.

With these being said, my proposals are:
Casters

  • replace the +200% cast speed cap with +250% (like it was previously) or even +300%. This way, cast speed casters can also benefit from TD offensively and build diversity will increase.
  • in order to compensate, decrese the +%cast speed bonus on low lvl items such that gear upgrades become meaningful.
    AAR
  • reduce energy cost by 20%;
  • remove caster off-hand requirement;
  • replace vitality damage on Disintegration with %WD (16% at lvl 1 and 40% at 12/12; increase at ultimate levels should be 2%/level).
    PRM
  • redesign supercharged: replace electrocute and +% elemental with small %WD (max 20 at 12/12)
    Shadow Strike
  • increase cost by 20-25%.
  • decrease WD% damage increase / level from 15% to 10%. If BM, WH and SB want massive damage they should go for Execution.
  • put native cooldown at 4 seconds.
    Legendary items
  • make the Pannetti’s Relicating Wand legendary proc actually useful for PRM builds.
  • swap the cold and lightning damage from the Trozan’s Ascension legendary set proc.
  • replace electrocute on Invoker’s Blaze with burn.
48

I’ve already made several post about the lack of %WD on caster skills and have been in favor of adding…until this post…

In another thread someone had commented about the dangers of %WD because you can then use ADCtH to heal from safely across the screen. I don’t think there would be enough inherent WD added, especially as most spells would keep this low if it was actually added to make it really that much of an issue. But Leeching isn’t just health… One of the biggest things casters deal with is their energy pool. To manage mine, I have equipped a warp stone to my weapon and just jump in (with mirrors if needed) and take a couple of swings as IEE has energy leech and my energy goes right back up. If my AAR beam had % WD, it would pick up the energy leech from IEE (and I’m sure there would be other sources to stack energy leech) and then I would basically have an almost infinite pool of energy (given the “current levels” of energy leech on IEE). Especially with the resent lowering of boss resists which now allow leeching when some additional resist reduction is applied. Even at 40% WD, with the number of ticks per second AAR does, the leech would be crazy! And yeah…even then the ADCtH health might even be significant…

The leeching could be adjusted by lowering the %, but that will hurt CT builds or melee builds the try to utilize it the way it was intended…

I do think an AAR build (besides the crazy energy cost) is pretty well balanced for Veteran and most of Elite. But definitely drops off in Ultimate. Adding weapon damage will help that scaling, but can also introduce many other issues… Definitely not an easy fix…

Just a comment on the fear of casters running around with 2H weapons, a “simple” fix would be to require a caster off hand like AAR and devastation already do! (they should also change Temporal Arcblade to a 1H and lower some stats so it can actually be used by a caster). Allowing casters to carry shields will help with their squishiness…but they are supposed to be squishy…but they are also supposed to excel in dealing damage… Should be a trade off there that is currently missing… At least they got the squishy thing down…

If there is a concern about balance of early game, there could be a lot better scaling of skills to their ultimate levels (similar to the storm callers pack “change” except increase the max at the ultimate level instead of shifting the crit damage to the ultimate levels). This will keep the early game integrity in tact as you typically need a lot of nice gear to move very far into the ultimate level of skills. Find that gear will not occur early. Keeping WD away means that the scaling should be a lot more significant to make up for the lack of gaining the all perks of flat damage from gear/devotions… Still that doesn’t make gearing very fun and will push people just to finding items with + skills… Again…not a simple fix…

Adding new attributes like spell/attack power is just too game changing… Would totally though off the enter game mechanics… I would not vote for that…

It sounds as if AAR had WD in early access but it was removed? Does anyone have the history on that as to why it was too powerful? I’m assuming it was removed because it was “Overpowered”…but what mechanically, made it OP? I’m starting to think it was the leeching…

49

A modifier of AAR used to have a very small WD% but it was buggy and I don’t think it actually worked so they just removed it. I think your energy leech fears are unfounded. In an AAR build most enemies die too fast one by one for leech to be an effective energy regen scheme. If a players wants to stack so much leech that they can spam AAR on a boss then more power to them, the skill isn’t balanced around players running out of energy, instead of a bunch of flat or % regen they’ll just stack leech and most ultimate bosses resist a large portion of that anyway.

50

Yep, my bad… Did more some more reading and found out energy leach is a dot not an on hit conversion like ADCtH (I’m pretty sure that is an on hit conversion…right?..been a long day…). With my AAR sorcerer I jump into packs with chaos strike when my energy is almost out and see it go back to full in 3-5 swings… I thought it was from striking the mobs…which probably did add the dot, but I’m probably also getting some (or most) from the AEO and 250% WD of Chaos Strike. As they don’t die instantly from chaos strike…

This is probably also why SB’s can maintain the energy for SS when using TD… By spamming SS it ensures the energy leech gets applied and with IEE at 12/12 gives 62 (base from grimcalc) energy/s…I’m assuming this would scale with the 450% WD (assuming only one will stack when DW) would be 279 energy per second (plus more if it crits assuming it works the same as a bleed/poison dot-minus the bosses resists? Spamming it would ensure a crit…) an top of the normal mana regen (another +60% during TD, according to current grim calc). Is that what you’ve been saying all long Avatar? I’ve been reading it purely the scaling of the % regen from IEE… Do I have this completely wrong too…

ADCtH, however, would still be on a per tick of the beam right? I’m not sure what “attack damage” is converted to health, but assuming 40% and I think AAR is around 6 ticks a second, it would be 240%/second of whatever damage is converted? This actually might be a good thing so one could actually attempt to facetank something. I would assume that it won’t be as much damage converted compared to a warder or someone else that specializes in that. So it might still be insignificant…or just right…or OP… I’ll let someone else with more knowledge on how that works comment on what that would do…

I like to play devils advocate. Many people look at the “quick fix” without asking what else this will affect… Unfortunately, I’m not that knowledgeable about all of the game mechanics…but trying to learn… :slight_smile: