[Suggestion] Some ideas to improve SR even further

(Marriage proposal to Zantai for changing the healer mobs and human hero resists still pending)

Since such a major improvement to SR is being made, I was thinking this could be a good time to discuss some other potential things people would like to see.

I will be working off the assumption the player is playing at SR65-80, as I haven’t spent enough time at the lower levels to be able to discuss specific imbalances there.

  1. Bosses
    I feel there are some bosses in higher SR that really don’t need to be there or that just don’t really feel like bosses at all. These are:
    Allostria: I don’t think I’ve ever felt even remotely threatened by anything she does on any character.
    Bloodlord Thalonis: Similar case, also feels fairly redundant given Karroz also appears in high SR boss rooms. In fact Karroz feels overall more threatening (if not killed before crystals are summoned) and more memorable (due to the 2-phased design) despite supposedly being a lower ranked member of the cult compared to Thalonis.
    Galfang, Night Terror: Often dead before the rocks start falling, the rocks are also the only thing of note he does. GT shows a bunch of skills he has, he either doesn’t get to do them at all or if he does, the player doesn’t feel them have any impact.
    Karnath Chillblood: Overlaps with Ilgorr and Moosilauke too much. He’s essentially a hybrid of two bosses we already have.
    Lagoth’Ak, Harbinger of Blood: Does absolutely nothing of note, is a free kill for anything. I understand some easy bosses are a nice reprieve (hence why I don’t mention some like the Dermapterran trio or Duskreaper) but there’s easy, there’s real damn easy, then there’s a 50 foot gap and then at the very bottom is this guy. Hits like a wet noodle and none of his skills matter. If he was just a hero he’d probably fit right in. Doesn’t even hold the honour of being THE bleed boss cause he can’t debuff bleed res and also Kuba holds that spot already.
    Okaloth, the Messenger: Would be perfectly fine but for one thing. His “projectiles from the sky” skill only triggers at medium range. That means melee characters that close instantly into melee never have to deal with it, ranged characters that can facetank him in melee (i.e. probably all of them) never have to deal with it and ranged characters that need to keep their distance never get hit by it cause he’ll never get close enough for long enough. As it stands the player just closes into melee and all Okaloth does is swing away at them. Also his cleaving “wave” attacks have a strange delay to them where the two swing animations have already completed and only then the damage comes in.
    Ragarroth the Tormented: Could possibly be dangerous with his 6-level charge-up attack. He never gets that far cause he dies so fast.
  1. Maps
    I’m generally very happy with the maps, there’s great diversity in tilesets, layouts, threat levels and densities. Even though some are consistently absolutely nutty (most tiny maps, such as Immolation), it gives the mode a lot of variety so I’d be fine with leaving those as is. One map, however, stands out a lot to me: the Bonebleach Basin. There’s often so little there. Medium clumps of damage spongy camels at regular-ish intervals, which give very little progress when killed, and very few hero and nemesis spawns spaced waaay out.

  2. Riggs’ Surprise!
    Those damn Associates! They’re a fun challenge, don’t get me wrong, but it’s so hard to tell them apart from normal enemies. The first time you notice they’re not normal humans is when your health starts disappearing and by then you may have pulled too much thinking you’re fine. And given how much harder they are they don’t seem to give any more progress than heroes that die in two seconds flat.

So my ideas: increase the mob density on Bonebleach. Fewer camels, more hero spawns. Make Okaloth’s meteors trigger in melee. Take Riggs’ Associates out of the hero spawn pool, add them as bosses to the boss rooms. GT shows there are 5 types of Associates in SR, there are 15 in the game. Add them all in and they could be picked similarly to Morgoneth’s Magi in randomised spawns of two or three at a time, so they get more of a spotlight on them in terms of abilities, and aren’t such an unpleasant shocker when encountered in normal chunks.

In addition, some notable enemies could be added to replace some of the above bosses that underperform or just aren’t all that interesting. Most if not all of these already appear at lower SR but vanish higher up:
Rutnick: this is pretty much the only shooter boss of note in the game, let’s give him a place to shine.
Avris Marrowill or Kalis’Ka: could take Lagoth’Ak’s spot as a bleed boss, except they can actually debuff bleed res and have meaningful skills other than “dying real fast”.
Balegor: troll representation! Could take the place of Galfang since there is plenty of eldritch bosses in SR already (Okaloth, Map Room Guards, Inashkor, Ishtal, Steward, Kymon etc.). Still a physical hitter but not as phys heavy as Voldrak so SR doesn’t become necessarily harder and more full of phys nukers, just gets more varied.
Father Abaddoth or Zaria: considerably more interesting alternatives to Thalonis IMO.
Rolderathis, Zarthuzellan or Kilrian: replacements for Karnath. More skelly variety, we currently only have Zantarin.

Thank you for coming to my TEDTalk and feel free to add any ideas you’ve had.


Hope this doesn’t apply to SR, heh :worried: :hot_face:


Good suggestions, the Okaloth one could also be done in MC since he does nothing there as well

I say bring it!
I’m up for a good challenge! :grin:

I’m not sweating, you’re sweating!

:sweat: :sweat: :face_vomiting:

I still wait for SR loot removal, as :zantai: promised. SR Sets and vendor may stay, of course. Or not :grin:.

Caaaaaaalm down there Satan. :rofl:

Gotta get these iron bits from somewhere man… :eyes:


Korvaak’s Chosen zealots drop so many armor pieces that sometimes I regret not having Torchlight pet companion to sell all that trash. But money is money :slightly_smiling_face:.

Good suggestions! I’d definitely like some or all of these to be implemented.

#makeSRinteresting :joy:

This is partly the reason why I was disappointed when the plans for a 1-2-1 layout for boss rooms in SR were scrapped. If done correctly, you could have seen these weak bosses paired together to offer an interesting challenge.

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Couldn’t agree more


i think this is simply because of “legacy” issue
the bosses have been deliberately paired up/put in “manual” XY combo as i understand Z’s mentions
remember how the boss room was originally bum rush fest, which people then “fixed” by using camera exploit?
having those specific bosses might have made sense in that case
and when camera exploit was going to be fixed there was even talks about going from full room pull to having 2 bosses (i’m assuming 1 Nemi+1purple) chained together, which didn’t come to fruition instead we got the single enemy pull, and SR got scaled up a little to compensate iirc

i’ve mentioned before that it could be cool to have some of the more special variants appear more etc, like get the dialed up Shattered variant of xy boss to appear on the regular shards, which could then maybe replace some of the lesser generics, or in general just replace them overall harder stuff.
i enjoy gargabol, korvaak etc encounters because they are decently rough bosses at those shards

*assuming trying chaining 2 bosses together now instead is totally off the table :sweat_smile:

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Make it so celestials randomly spawn in shards, all of them :grin:


A small boss room with all three Ravagers and Calla - so they can’t be avoided :for the challenge:

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for me, SR can be improved in some ways, like:

  • make portals to next level spawn in close proximity to a player. it’s just not fun to run around the level for 20 sec to get to it.

  • make more consistent nemesis spawns. going thru a level with rare groups of mobs and no nemesis is an awful experience. so, let it be either groups of enemies like skellies/spiders or guaranteed nemmy.

  • make shrines/altars/whatsoever useful. as far as I know, no one uses them. literally. they give bonuses that perish over time, require a rare component and also have downsides on them. what is even the reason to activate the altar then?

my suggestion: make them permanent, maybe with lesser bonuses but with no penalties. and do sth with cost.


wasn’t that impossible?
because the portals (like most things in the game) had to be from a predetermined spawn/location? - atleast i feel like remembering “hearing”/reading something like that :thinking:

The one thing that has been bothering me about SR for years is this floating untextured/black grass in one of the void chunks. It’s triggering me every time I see it :sweat_smile:

I usually ignore the camel packs in the open desert and rush straight towards those little oasis patches. That’s where I usually find nemeses and regular hero mobs. That way beating the map doesn’t take too much longer than others.

Maybe I’m wrong but aren’t they only spawning in SR if they are also spawning in MC (via Rigg’s quest or afterwards if you ask for it)? I never see them in SR. Might be RNG though :man_shrugging:t4:

I highly disagree with that. Better buff the lame bosses, and add more.

I agree with that. I used shrines once when SR was new to try them out and determine they are garbage, and once again for the steam achievement. That’s it, just not worth it at all.
I would not make them permanent though, just remove the rare material cost and decrease or even remove the penalties.

Yea I think Z mentioned that in a similar discussion.

Imo most portal positions aren’t too bad and easily reachable within 10 seconds which is fine. You can also plan your route to one of the positions and with a little bit of luck you’ll end up right next to the portal after the last enemy dies.

This one I disagree with. I like that the spawns are varied and sometimes you get a harder map and sometimes an easier one. It doesn’t become predictable, you have to be on the lookout constantly and sometimes, when you’ve scratched and clawed to SR80 and you’re sweating bullets, it’s nice if the game lets you off easy every now and then.

I understand that Nemesis hunting is efficient time-wise for the player, provided you’re playing at 75-76. However, I don’t really play SR to farm as much as I play it to test performance/reliability of my builds. So I do SR75-80 runs and I find at those higher levels it’s often not worth it both timer-wise and safety-wise to aggro nemeses, especially the ones that resist you. Now, you may argue “well it’s a choice, isn’t it, either you fight them if you’re speedfarming or you avoid them if you’re pushing higher”. That would be true, except on many maps, particularly the smaller ones like Gloomwald Caves, Ugdenbog Caves or Immolation, they can be unavoidable, cause they either spawn at a chokepoint you simply have to cross, or they spawn almost literally next to the spawn (on one cave map in particular, which is also full of traps). If a nemesis spawn was guaranteed these maps would become waaay harder and they’re already by far the hardest maps at high SR. Essentially, adding guaranteed Nemeses would make SR better for speedfarming with strong characters, worse for everyone else (weaker characters trying to play tactically to survive, people interested in pushing high SR etc.).

I’m not too in favour of this one either. I get it, as it stands the shrines might as well not be there for most players. However, for newer players and for some characters (like those that struggle on cc res or res overcaps) they can be helpful. I used them A LOT when I was doing SR75-80 testing on some of my earlier characters. I probably would be using some of them still, but I specifically decided to start testing my characters in their natural state to better gauge what they’re good at and what they lack. I personally wouldn’t want SR to turn into Crucible where you’re playing against heavily stacked odds but are expected to be super stacked yourself. I think the shrines having a give and take aspect makes them more interesting, you actually have to think if they’re worth the downsides (and I think most except for the armor one are, depending on character of course). If you’re just farming 75-76, yeah, it’s probably not worth it for that short a stretch of time, you’re not even gonna find that many of them. But people that aren’t in it for the speedfarm, like people that like to test themselves against 80+ (not me), will get a much better use out of them.

I’ve done that too but I haven’t felt much of a difference in density there. Sometimes there’s just a camel pack with a hero or two in there and the oases are so spaced out you lose a ton of time(er) just running between them. I’ve also found the nemesis more often around the broken ship in the middle, which tends to be surrounded by those damage-spongy camels and not much else.

Nope, they’re just pretty damn rare but they spawn regardless. I almost never provoke Riggs cause what’s the point, I won’t be going to the campaign map to find them when I’ve just finished FG, but I still get them in SR.

Just for fun :slightly_smiling_face:. His threats are pathetic and so-called “troubles” are just slightly sturdier loot pinatas that do not even spawn in non-FG areas :rofl:. Reminds me of Skyrim’s hired goons that are only “dangerous” on early levels, after that - no challenge at all.

I recently started playing HC so had to climb SR all over again. In SR10 I saw this boss room:

This should be used in SR65+ too. The regular chunks are varied enough but only 3 different boss rooms for the common farming shards is pretty boring. I don’t think I’ve ever seen this room before or I don’t remember because it’s so rare (or maybe it was added when I didn’t play low SR anymore) so adding it to the SR65+ pool would be nice for a little more variation.


Yeah there’s also a Fleshworks themed one in lower SR that doesn’t appear higher up. Would be nice for sure. There’s really some good stuff going on in the lower shards that gets cut higher up (bosses and rooms) that could totally have a place in high SR for some wonderful variety. And what’s best, since it’s already in SR to begin with, it wouldn’t take much of Z’s time to implement yet would bring a lot of stuff in.

Edit: That said, quality over quantity, I guess. If some of the lower SR bosses wind up performing like Lagoth’Ak if tossed into higher shards then SR would end up just getting diluted with a whole bunch meh.