thoughts on infernal knight set/bwc as a whole

Grim Dawn Ideas and Feedback
1

so i just tried a bwc character, hardcore, and it was really good despite a couple glaring issues

it was also incredibly quick, leveled from 1-82 in 16:22, with an 8s ultimate sharzul kill even though he has 100% fire resistance lol

the skill is kind of a trap in normal/veteran as the point at which it starts to outscale greater fireblast as a leveling tool comes super late. i think i switched over around level 35 or so, but i actually think it would have been much faster to just do veteran entirely with gfb with devastation for bosses, then switch to bwc at level 50 when you get access to some broken legendaries.

the skill is really awkward to get used to do to the huge delay after firing. even with 200% cast speed, it still feels really slow. the build i’m using has a lightning-fast clear speed, but due to the clunkiness of the skill it felt really arduous.

it had one of the most effortless elite clears of any build i’ve ever played, but it starts to fall off defensively on ultimate, the main reason being lack of leech. even with flame torrent (which has perfect synergy with bwc), wyrmscale handguards, and ulzuin’s pyroclasm for %wd i still had a lot of trouble staying alive through acts 3 and 4 ultimate. required a lot of kiting and had a few really close calls. i’m cheeky and use mark of anathema though, it would be way less risky with mark of divinity.

i really don’t understand why all main skills don’t have some kind of %wd component to them, not necessarily even to aid with scaling (as bwc scales ridiculously at ultimate levels, and an 8s sharzul kill with a fire skill is hilariously fast), but to allow for life leech, which feels nigh-mandatory towards the end of ultimate.

leech isn’t ‘necessary’ on ranged characters, but, regardless of your intention as developers, bwc is not a ranged skill; due to both the delay on the initial damage and the residual nature of the skill itself, you will be taking a lot of hits, even if a lot of smaller stuff dies before it reaches you. in some ways, killing stuff before it hits you actually reduces your survivability since your main leech, flame torrent, only triggers in melee range.

the reduced OA on afflicted monsters is fantastic and gives the build a layer of much-needed survivability, so kudos on that. i still don’t really think it’s enough though. i really have no idea why there’s reduced armor on demon fire, since if you’re using BWC you’re probably not using a physical damage skill alongside it, and if you are the armor reduction is not really going to do much for you. i get that it’s a thematic thing but maybe drop it for something like reduced attack speed? maybe that would be broken in tandem with the slow from flashbang, i don’t know, it just feels really wasteful. armor reduction is a terrible stat even on physical characters. honestly i think this is where the %wd should come from, just swap out the armor reduction. or just give the skill inherent leech a la sigil of consumption, even a super small amount would go a long way.

tbh i think the damage from the skill is probably a bit too high, especially since i can push it even higher at no cost with a couple additional pieces of gear and additional proc damage (it’s probably the best skill in the game for triggering procs). i think the cast animation needs to be increased a sizable amount to make the skill feel less awkward, and the damage should be reduced to compensate for faster throwing.

as for the infernal knight set, i’m not sure how i feel about it. the helmet is absurdly good, and is everything that mask of infernal truth should have been. i suggested turning the on-use skill from the latter into a proc like a year ago, so i’m happy it actually happened in a roundabout way. the helmet is the only piece i used on my character btw.

the chest seems really good, but i don’t have the shoulders or belt and i couldn’t find a good way to make up for the energy regen i’d lose from swapping out of clairvoyant’s robe.

the shoulders seem fantastic, losing out on +3 bwc iron maiden shoulders doesn’t really matter given the bonuses the set offers.

the belt is a bit weird, ulzuin’s torment is one of the best-itemized pieces in the entire game, and losing out on it is pretty unfortunate. i don’t imagine the 4piece proc being worth the swap, but if i can find one i’ll try it out to be sure.

in general, my issue with it stems from how one-dimensional the bonuses are. when you’re designing a set around a skill, surely there are more interesting options than just giving a whopping +8 to that skill for completing the set? especially since bwc is a skill with a ridiculous amount of +skills on useful items already. you’re probably using a weapon with +1 to demolitionist, you’re definitely using ulzuin’s pyroclasm, you’re probably using peerless eye. freeing up the hand slot and letting us stay at +10 doesn’t really help since wyrmbone handguards are perfectly itemized for the build already, i’d use them even if the +3 to bwc was wasted.

more bonuses to demon fire would be nice, since then i wouldn’t need to use double entropic coil. there are no bonuses to agonizing flames anywhere in the set, which is unfortunate since the skill scales pretty well into ultimate ranks.

i haven’t tried crucible yet but i imagine i’d probably die if i did. haven’t tried mad queen either but given how fast that sharzul kill is i could see this build being able to kill her without too much trouble.

2

^ Nice analysis, man. Let me give my take on the set:

  1. I have played the IK set in HC as both a Sorceror (focusing on cast speed) and a Pyromancer. Both of these builds are quite strong actually even if I believe the Pyro scales better in late game due to better overall survivability and ability to debuff bosses.

  2. I have recreated the Infernal Knight Pyromancer in SC in order to run subsequent tests regarding its viability with a more offensive setup. As of now I believe IK Pyro is the strongest pyro build you can make. In fact, I completely abandoned sigil in favor of a physical damage setup because even physical damage bosses such as Fabius can’t burst you down with the transmuter.

  3. Doing Gladiator Crucible solo is actually easier than with a lot of other caster setups. Single target damage is, ofc, not tier 1, but that matters little due to the enormous AoE a BWC build provides.

  4. The shoulder item is the worst part of the IK. The 4-set ability provides AoE - i.e. a dimension BWC + devotions cover extensively already. For a sorceror, it may be circumstantially good, but for a Pyro it is very, very bad. At 130% run speed you will basically run circles around the mobs, confining them to a vortex of fire where the mines, fissure and BWC will burn even Obsidians in 3-4 seconds. This is why I don’t believe the shoulders are worth it. I would rather farm IM ad nauseam for 3 days for a “of Kings” shoulderpads than criple myself for a 5k increase in dps that kills mobs in 3 seconds as opposed to 4.

  5. Ulzuin’s Pyroclasm is…surprise, surprise…not ideal for the Crucible. Because the set does not allow pure “facetanking”, you have to move around a lot and the massive “ticks” of BWC will work against you here. In the higher waves of the Crucible you want to focus some specific boss/bosses very fast, so having your fire shotgun go in all directions is not exactly ideal. Unfortunately, the alternative is Annihilation: a relic that is so bad right now that you can’t make full use of it. I would love if Crate put a +50% crit damage on the meteor (just like Grenado) such that BWC builds had a reasonable alternative to the Pyroclasm.

  6. The set should buff Demon Fire also. Actually, it is mandatory to do so for reasons pertaining to build diversity.

3

thanks for the reply, i’m a bit out of the loop but you seem to be one of the top build-makers now so it’s nice to get to theorycraft with you

i thought about pyro, i already have a comical amount of resistance reduction from agonizing flames/warpfire/tome of names/thermite mine, but i could see how cof would push it even further, tbh i just didn’t have the patience to push another debuff button in normal gameplay lol

on your build with transmuted bwc, what do you use as a main attack?

also, you prefer fissure to flame torrent? i found that since i was reliably triggering torrent twice per second, it was doing a huge amount in addition to giving me some leech. it also has a lower opportunity cost to reach since magi has some really awful nodes you have to path through to reach fissure (8% elem and 25% fire are shockingly bad)

since the 4piece seems about as bad as i expected, why do you prefer 3pc + maiden shoulders over 3pc + ulzuin’s torment? the latter still lets you stay at +10 bwc without any trouble. i get that the shoulder bonuses aren’t amazing, but the phys resist and demon fire boost coupled with how insane ulzuin’s torment is should help even it out, no?

i get that much of your reasoning stems from crucible performance, which i haven’t actually spent much time on after ripping my favourite character the week it launched to some bullshit zantarin one-shot through mark of divinity and blast shield. i should probably stop being a whiny baby and actually start playing seriously again.

4

The Burn on BWC is extremely high. It’s the best fire-based DoT skill in the game. That’s what I personally like about it. The only thing that comes close to applying that much burn is surprisingly Canister Bomb.

I wouldn’t mind if instead of hurling the skill, the flames where summoned with a slight delay with a different cast animation. Just for a bit of variety of seeing Scorpion-esque “fire from hell” shenanigans. :slight_smile: Though I understand the devs wanted a Molotov clone.

At OP it sounds like you want to turn the skill into SoC. Having BWC leech life and have an instant cast just turns it into another SoC imo. A pyro with SoC + a leeching BWC kinda seems broken.

I don’t mind if they add bonuses to “Agonizing Flames” but do feel that Agonizing Flames due to it’s “all” resist reduction mechanics should be difficult to cap.

5

  1. I like Flame Torrent and use it on my Black Flame Chaos AAR Warlock, for example. That’s because using AAR you have no other option than to facetank. The WD% component helps me there with both HP and energy issues. Here, I took Fissure because I didn’t want to make a “facetanking” caster, but an ultimate AoE machine that throws one BWC + CoF and burns an entire room (which is exactly what happens). If someone wants to rush Behemoth + Solael’s Witchfire, going FT is nice. However, unlike a sorceror that has no inherent heal, pyromancers have sigil with destruction and that pretty much makes you borderline unkillable until you can farm nice gear on Ultimate.

  2. In the campaign, going for Ulzuin’s Torment is good, ofc. That is one of the best items in the game in terms of itemization. In the Crucible, however, stun resistance is perhaps the most important stat. I could probably craft green belts until I get the roll that I want, but those belts will never give me a nice bonus to the BWC line. The Iron Maiden shoulderpads can come with some +%HP and stun resistance bonuses that I need.

  3. Generally, I am using Greater Fireblast as LMB. Not because it does good damage, but because it provides another “tick” in order to proc Pyroclasm. Otherwise I just throw Grenades that can crit for 70-90k casually. Yes it is a fire/chaos/physical build.

  4. Related to (3). Pyromancers, I believe, have enormous versatility when it comes to BWC, because: 1) they have a heal; 2) they level with 0 risks due to sigil + CoF; 3) They actually make Grenado very powerful - as a point of reference, with the Ulzuin’s Pact in the Crucible, I could throw 130k grenades every 2 seconds on average; 4) They are “proc machines”.

  5. I really believe a redesign to the 4-set ability of the IK is needed. More AoE is basically overkill while the +3 to mines/ + 3 to BWC is unimaginative.