Yes the drops rates to the magi rings are infamously low and even after 4500 hours played, I’m constantly updating my knowledge. There is not a single player in the world that could possibly know all there is to every minor detail to the complex game mechanics.
I would have loved to see the breakdown of the gear score. I also did not say that any of those builds would be broken or dysfunctional. However I disagree with your statement that the performance wouldn’t be greatly impacted. When the basis of this and other metrics is literally shaving seconds off a run. Those single percentage points in damage very much add up to seconds shaved off a run.
I’m not at all discrediting the work that you or any of the others had put into this list and your builds. I’m not questioning your knowledge of the game and it’s mechanics either.
I do not think the disclaimer was needed. A majority of players do assume that they are end-game builds that will only preform as advertised once every item has been obtained ad every devotion proc has been maxed. Along with the hundreds/thousands of hours needed to pilot the builds as well as you or other top tier pilots. I’m most certain that a majority of players would struggle to get the results that the youtube videos display and that’s all on the pilot in question not the build itself.
Builds made like that with realistic items (yes they are far from fantasy setups which I know and make sometimes for the lols) can teach you a lot about how to best optimize your characters and are ideals to strive for. I prefer that because it’s more educational for me.
Completely disagree that it would make significant difference. Besides it doesn’t even matter because most of the builds are optimized in a similar way and we care about comparing them with each other not about absolute times you could actually get close to after putting a bit of effort / watching videos.
Appreciate all you guys put into your builds and this list. Beautiful people beautiful builds 
Thank you for definitively proving pet builds suck!
This is an important bit btw. Also I feel like whenever people discount builds with greens they fail to appreciate Zantai and Crate’s (tremendous btw) efforts to make greens farming easily accessible and I think you guys are living in the past. Maybe you already had the legendaries before droprates were adjusted but if you start from scratch, most MIs are definitely easier to farm specific affixes on (as long as they match base item elements) than farming legendaries which drop everywhere. Hell the hardest things to farm outside of magi rings are epic items.
You’ll have to either trust us on that or not, your choice. There is not much to break down from gear score, most of the time it was an arbitrary number a builder scored the build with using their (limited to an extent) understanding of the droprates the game has - and then having it checked by other people. Scrutinizing every one of hundreds builds we tested for the exact chance to get the exact items used in every build (most of which didn’t even have BiS affixes) was way, way beyond the manpower we had. Instead we focused on actually testing as many builds as we can to the best of our abilities.
Most people will not have the same piloting skills, and that was also accounted for. The vast majority of videos i linked are not cherry picked runs with cherry picked rooms/mutators.
Just an example: i can run the exact version of FW Warlord listed in the post to sub4 Crucible in the best run. I will run the same build but with greens i can farm in a day to smth like 4:15 Crucible. That’s about the estimate of difference in most cases. Most affixes you treat as fantasy will result in percentages or even tenths of a percent of the end performance increase. While a single shattered mutator is a 10% total dmg nuke.
Personally I prefer this list - GrimSheet: Endgame Build Table - ETE edition [v1.41]. Perhaps it can be updated for the current patch and with SR speedrunning as an added metric?
Also, I believe that the lazy play promoter in question prefers Trinkets over beastcallers and focuses on superbosses and high SR rather than fast clears. Eg-
I do trust you and the other builders/players. It’s just much easier for us all to see the data/numbers and your logic behind the choices having been made than to just take a pros word for it (which I and many others are). I understand that the task at hand is an overwhelming project and all of the number crunching for a majority of players is superfluous to the end goal of an objectively strong build. Which this list and the builds are, so the goal is accomplished regardless.
For what was compiled you guys went above and beyond, so I commend you on the time effort and energy put into the project. I just like the minutia of this kind of stuff and that’s where most of my concerns arise.
While the vids may not be cherry picked I do feel that they do not give an accurate view of an average player farming an average run in SR. Those that know me tease me that I need to play other things than SR ONLY and I do play aggressively. However I highly doubt that even if I downloaded the character files I could get 5min runs like they show. Crucible is a mode that I will play more as I feel it’s an unfortunate metric that still needs to be included in builds posted. Which I will begin doing soon…
Yes, the point on the mutators is valid. Any single negative mutator can ruin a run period let alone more than one. This is why my team and I will reset SR150+ when we have more than 2 overly negative mutators.
I do appreciate the replies thus far as they are helping us understand better.
Nothing will. Any player or group of players capable of making a semi proper ranking will be automatically disqualified as “average player”.
Both authors of that list are part of the group who made this list and have contributed in some ways while not being part of the main 5 runners.
But lists are still different and use different scoring system and metrics.
Would love to see the scores of these builds using that system which seems more fleshed out and suited to the purpose compared to farming 75-76 alone.
Based and Jarvispilled.
There was some intent to revive grimsheet way before the testing for this list was made, iirc. But both authors were unable to find time for it.
Even so the system for grimsheet was heavily skewed towards hyper specialized builds. I dare say majority of the builds in this list will still dominate grimsheet. Nobody said the builds here can’t be tweaked to climb as high as possible.
Also you missed the part where it’s not just “farming 75-76 alone”. It’s farming 75-76, while also farming crucible, while also doing superbosses safely.
I feel the opposite is true and this list is heavily skewed towards hyper specialized builds.
But then they become different builds. Or are there single setups that can both climb high shards while also managing to fit into this list?
Videos only show 75-76 though?
Are there dedicated posts for these builds with the exact same setups doing something other than 75-76?
Why not try out some of the builds? I did try more than half of the Top20 in SR85, 3-5 runs each, and they steamrolled to the one. Zero deaths. Most felt like 90-100 would be doable with some tweaks. Some felt capable of 110 even with serious tweaks.
IMO 120+ requires a specialized setup to enable an irregular for GD playstyle where the main char either doesn’t get dealt dmg almost at all (like pets and tank kiters with safety breakers) or stacks certain stats to irregular levels like hp to 50k - usually by selling all dmg and then praying for no Kuba or IM. SR120+ in my opinion and the opinion of most players, I reckon, is not your regular GD. Builds targeting it are super specialized - made for this singular purpose and sucking at clear speed which is a primary criterium - and can be compared to builds targeting dummy kills. You’re free to choose your own definition of a top build, as is everyone, but this one, which I 100% support, is simple and true: “you got no dmg, you’re out.”
Maybe the authors could’ve included honorable mentions for builds capable of such specialized achievements and sprinkled on some SR120 solo Bysmiels/Beastcallers or 4s dummy kill Rah’Zins or SR160 team hp tanks with Meat Shield or whatever. But they didn’t and that’s that.
You should read the OP as it clearly outlines what these builds were tested on besides 75-76
The videos are just to show the builds in action. Getting exhaustive video proof of every claim for every build would be a huge undertaking on top of an already huge undertaking. If you doubt the claims you can take the save file for spin.
Hence why I mentioned the Grimsheet. To my knowledge it is based on the same build without any tweaks performing to their max capability whether it be in Crucible, SR or superbosses.
Some are slower to clear but sturdier and are acknowledged as such while others might make up the missing points against superbosses, etc. If a build gets a tick mark on everything, it ends up with a high score and can be safely considered to be an all rounder.
Why make claims without any proof then?
It shouldn’t be upto the reader to try and disprove a claim made without any given evidence.
Asking the reader to prove a claim made by the listmakers without evidence leads to issues like this -
If the no.1 build on the list is having trouble vs Ravager, I have no hopes of tackling SR 100+ or the likes of Callagadra with them. Perhaps the build makers can. But, that is for them to prove.
Under the same logic, shouldn’t you have posted a video of you fighting the Ravager so that I can be certain you didn’t throw the fight to make a point? Edit: this was a statement of logic. It wasn’t meant to be a catty challenge. You don’t need to provide a video which was kinda my point. sorry for the tone.
The reason I believe the claims without exhaustive evidence is because the people involved in this project have earned that kind of respect and trust over the years. I’ve played similar(and far less optimised) builds to some of the ones listed here, and they performed well enough for me to see the claims as credible based on my own experience. I have no logical reason to doubt.
If I were trying to dispute a proved claim, then perhaps.
But what if there were tweaks that need to be made to achieve those results?
Wouldn’t it be better for newer players to know exactly what needs changing?
You keep using the same arguments and ppl keep refuting them with the same facts. Just try those builds and see. For the n-th time, all Top20 here do superbosses. All are capable of SR >100. All got orders of magnitude higher dmg than SR120+ specialized pet setups. Do those specialized setups deserve a place among the top builds because they can push higher in this singular challenge by sucking at dmg? That’s subjective but objectively no 
Yup, and once more say I: pets are not it. They don’t get a tick mark on everything, just on one thing (maybe two, I concur, with no pharma celestials as the 2nd). Those SR120 pets got dmg on a level of meme builds or some of the recently posted forum purifier builds with Fire Strike at 8/12. You can argue that those criteria are unfair but you saying that SR120 pets got decent enough damage? Just play top all-rounder builds and see for yourself the difference.
I can no longer resist. drags out lawn chair, makes popcorn, watches
I think Cockatiel is perhaps taking too many cues from their mentor 
Everyone should take a breath, take a step back and just look at this list as one perspective from a subset of the community, a subset that openly acknowledges their limits on certain aspects of the game, especially as it pertains to pets.
No list can tell you how to enjoy the game or what you personally consider the best or the most fun. ARPGs feature a very diverse community and we like to think (perhaps wishfully) that we’ve catered to many parts of it with Grim Dawn, so that everybody can find their fun.