It would seem like a natural fit for the build, but Fiend simply doesn’t add enough to a build that’s already extremely tight on devotion points.
Here’s a more detailed breakdown. Fiend’s primary synergies with this build are:
+60% pet fire damage: We already have +1920% pet fire damage on this build, so the increase is very minor.
+40% player fire damage: We already have +1411% player fire damage on this build, so the increase is very minor.
Damage proc: We already have 4 AOE damage effects with far better AOE coverage and uptime, so the increase is very minor.
To make the affinities work, Fiend must replace one of the following in the build:
Bat: One of the most important sources of sustain for this build, and replacing it with minor damage bonuses is a non-starter. Even if you sacrifice other items/devotions to add life steal bonuses, trying to use Flame Torrent to ADCtH as a pet build is a great way to commit suicide.
Solael’s Witchblade: Eldritch Fire’s resistance shred far more effectively boosts damage than the minor bonuses from Fiend, and its AOE effect has far superior coverage.
Bysmiel’s Bonds: +70% to all pet damage, +8% pet total speed, and an extra pet to soak up buffs all combine to add considerably more damage than Fiend.
Jackal + Raven: +5% pet OA, +5% pet attack speed, +15% total pet damage, and +30% total player damage are also far superior bonuses.
As explained in Close-up: Understanding Pet Damage, +% damage bonuses are actually a fairly small part of overall pet DPS, and Fiend offers little aside from that. Fiend is primarily useful for builds with a very specific use for its proc.
I love this build. The Pyromancer is my favorite class pairing, but I was worried that it was only good for gunslinger builds. I just wanted to stop by and say nicely done. Thank you for proving me wrong.
dw melee, bwc, grenado focus, and sigil/bwc/doombolt are all options all good options for pyros! None of which are as good as shiv’s super sexy build, but they all work quite well especially for campaign
I’m having some trouble approaching level 45. I seem to be dying quite often to any swarm of enemy that thinks I’m the threat.
As stated previously however, this is my first pet build, so pet aggro may be the issue.
When you say, “let the pets handle most of the trash”- you referring to anything with a yellow or white name, correct? And I shouldn’t really be using Greater Fireblast to help with killing them unless I’m sure I can take the damage if I provoke the mobs?
Can you provide a character link? (Upload to Grimtools)
I meant that you shouldn’t need to burn all your mana trying to (Greater) Fireblast everything. Against most trash, using your CC/debuffs should be enough.
As mentioned by others on this thread, you can certainly use pet aggro management. One popular method is to stand off-screen from enemies, and use “Pet Attack” with aggressive stance to move your pets to the edge.
My preferred playstyle is ignore pet aggro issues altogether and simply play the build as a regular ranged/caster build, using kiting, CC, and defenses. Unlike other pet builds, this build has just as much (or even more) survivability features compared to standard ranged/caster builds. If you’re familiar with how to play ranged/caster builds (especially CC/debuff usage) and are still having trouble with survivability, then we should review your character link to improve your setup.
Note my resists are pretty bad, (40% and under on most of them), but not as bad as that link shows, lol. I’m still on veteran, not on ultimate obviously. That was my other idea as to what might be going wrong.
Thanks for the character link. Resists aren’t the problem, but your health can be much improved. In Veteran, it generally isn’t worth it to try to improve all 9 separate resistances when you can simply double your HP pool instead. However, it’s impossible to scale raw HP alone to match the increased monster damage and resistance penalty in Elite/Ultimate, so resists become a huge concern later on.
You have some significant pet damage bonuses and casting speed bonuses in your equipment, which would generally be sensible. However, I’ll echo what I wrote in post #78 of this thread that health is a higher priority than pet damage. With that in mind, I’ve updated your equipment accordingly, using faction item replacements for the most part and filling in your missing components and augments. Here are some notes:
Building a large health pool is critical to survival early on. You’ll notice that I replaced many of your pet damage items with player health items instead, but this impacts your pet DPS less than you might think. Using the Max Pet Damage Calculator to illustrate, here’s where your current pet damage is coming from:
Even with your hellhound overcapped, we’re still able to raise its base damage by over 50% using flat damage bonuses alone. Keep this in mind before you start getting worried that you don’t have “enough” +% pet damage bonuses!
Looking at Section 2 (for +% damage), you can see that +% pet damage on items is actually a small portion of all +% damage bonuses. Stacking lots of pet damage items actually has a relatively minor effect. Observe what happens after my replacement of 1/3 of your pet damage items for more player health:
Given the minor impact (only -9%), you receive far better returns by pumping your health way up instead.
Prioritize large damage spikes, rather than small incremental bonuses. Instead of trying to stack lots of Subjugator’s items, at your level the most important determinant of pet DPS (by far) is having extra pets, namely from Savage relic and Og’Napesh. Be sure to farm for Og’Napesh at level 40-45 bosses if you don’t have it yet.
Other upcoming damage spikes to pay attention to acquiring: Thermite Mines, Necromancer’s Deathgrips, Hungering Void, Elemental Storm, and especially Primal Instinct.
Pet OA bonuses are hugely important. My item changes/additions improved your pet OA from +5% to +14%, and increasing it further should be a top priority. Keep in mind that +% pet OA also improves flat OA bonuses from Flame Touched and BoD, and this makes your +% pet crit bonuses (such as from Shepherd’s Call) much more effective.
Lastly, I’ve also updated the leveling guide by moving BoD and Flashbang investments further forward. My personal preference is to beeline for Thermite Mines ASAP to replace Greater Fireblast, which results in:
Significant increase in all pet DPS due to resistance shred.
Much safer method of direct damage since it allows active kiting instead of rooted casting.
Allows another Burning Weapons for even more flat damage and pet fire bonuses.
Although this would be more optimal for DPS, the target audience of the leveling guide would better benefit from heavier front-loading of survivability. Therefore, if you’re currently following the leveling guide, be sure to review the changes and adjust your current and upcoming skill allocations accordingly.
First I want to thank you again for all your detailed answers, I think it really helps everyone understand better how to build their character !
I am still leveling mine and having a lot of fun
I am level 60 right now. I have Og’Napesh, I don’t have the Necromancer Gloves, I don’t have the relic Savage but I have the blueprint and I don’t have the relic Primal Instinct neither the blueprint.
Relic :
Should I craft the Relic Savage or save the mat for Primal Instinct ?
And what is the best way to farm for blueprints ? Treasure trove ?
Equipments :
Should I keep Og’Napesh at level 65 since I don’t have the Necromancer Gloves or Primal Instinct ? Or can I switch to the Empowered Wyrmclaw if I craft Savage Relic ?
If I understood correctly your lasts posts, the more pets the better so I would conclude that my priority should be to keep the Og’Napesh, craft the relic savage and farm (and pray) for the blueprint and the gloves. Or do you advise something else ?
I do not have Og’Napesh, but my offhand does have a 5% chance to spawn a pet on attack. Does this drop just from the 40-45 bosses? I thought it had a chance to drop from anything just about.
I don’t even have the recipe for Savage atm, been going for the troves and the oneshot chests to try to get one to drop.
Craft Savage immediately for sure: you’ll need lots of substitute pets until you’ve crafted Primal Instinct, at which point the build will skyrocket in power and it’ll become better to replace extra pets with extra pet bonuses.
The best way to farm blueprints are treasure troves, one-shot chests, devotion shrines, and multiplayer Crucible.
Yes to your last paragraph, and I’d add Heart of the Mountain to your item list as well. This build works by having enough pets to soak up all the flat damage, +% elemental damage, both flat and % OA bonuses, +% crits, and enemy debuffs. Until you have Primal Instinct, you’ll need to temporarily pad your pet count using Savage, Og’Napesh, and Heart of the Mountain.
The Black Grimoire of Og’Napesh is a level 40 item, so your best chance of having one drop is by farming areas at or slightly above the item level. Unfortunately, only the Empowered version can be crafted.
Awesome guide.
I can really tell you love your build with the amount of details and effort you put into this guide. While pet builds are not my thing, I had to give you kudos for creating one of the best guides I’ve read, in terms of sheer information and knowledge you can get out of it.
Yes the idea was to kite, as you say, but that’s not all that easy since you also have to ‘keep the enemies in the SoC and BWC areas’ - and they are very small. So kiting and keeping things in a small circle… how?
Good thing that most of them melt in a second when you get Soc + BWC on them but when you get mobbed it is hard to cover all enemies.
EDIT: I have some ways to do this.
Fight in doorways or other choke points. Click at the doorway to get the pets stationed there, then when they start fighting drop the other stuff. WIth pets set to aggressive I have to keep clicking to get them to stay.
In open areas, either run in circles round the enemy dropping soc/bwc so they spin around in it. Or…
Find some kind of feature like a small rock, stand to one side of it to make the enemy come that way, then drop the Soc/bwc after making the pets engage just to the side of the rock. The last one isn’t perfect but it funnels a fair number in the right direction.
Any other ways?
EDIT 2: Not sure why put the 1 point into Temper?
Also levelling guide says 10 points in Thermite but the Grimcalc shows only 9 after +skills?
The fire and chaos damage listed on Ember Claw aren’t added to the hellhound’s base attack - it’s an entirely different attack that occasionally replaces the Hellhound’s main attack. The final build doesn’t use the skill because:
The % weapon damage of the skill is unknown. It’s quite possible that the skill uses less than 100% WD (possibly even 0%), which would greatly reduce the effect of flat damage. Keep in mind that in the final build, the vast majority of the Hellhound’s base damage comes from added flat damage.
The player generates huge amounts of threat via all the ticks from CoF, SoC, BWC, and Thermite Mines. It would be awfully hard for any pet to pull aggro from the player using the threat mechanic, which makes Ember Claw’s primary feature somewhat useless.
The final build is already point-starved enough to fall short of the 10-point break point for Thermite Mines. Every skill point counts.
Possession provides the following bonuses, primarily useful in Crucible:
12% damage absorption for extra survivability.
100% skill disruption protection against certain debuffs.
+135% vitality damage for increased healing from Twin Fangs.
25% chaos resistance.
To kite, run circles around bosses or masses of enemies. Here are some examples from the gameplay videos already posted:
Port Valbury @ 8:40: Corral multiples bosses between the pillars while kiting by running around outside the pillars.
Valdaran @ 0:07: Light a giant bonfire, and keep moving (even when teleported) to keep the fire between you and as many enemies as possible.
In general, the Port Valbury gameplay video illustrates a lot of tactics for the vanilla campaign, such as effective use of chokepoints, spreading out mines in open areas, etc.
It’s not SoC and BWC that needs to “cover all enemies” - it’s Thermite Mines.
SoC is only used to refresh Shepherd’s Call whenever it lapses, so it doesn’t need to be hitting every enemy - just at least one enemy somewhere on the battlefield.
BWC only needs to be placed between you and your enemies to force them to run through it; if they do reach you, their melee attacks suffer 18% less physical damage and reduced OA. Enemies that aren’t an immediate melee threat don’t need to be hit by BWC.
Thermite Mines SHOULD be hitting as many enemies as possible, both to shred RR and to proc Eldritch Fire. See Port Valbury @ 1:33 for an example of spreading mines to cover your flank from attacks in multiple directions. Also, refer to Port Valbury @ 2:31 for an example of gathering a large crowd, backing into a corner, and laying out a large field of thermite to blanket them all. Smart and tactical use of thermite makes a big difference.
Lastly, Flashbang spam can be an effective equalizer when “mobbed” by enemies. For example, at Port Valbury @ 4:55 I ran into a large crowd that included 5 Hulks (fun for any caster!), and I immediately spammed 3-4 Flashbangs. This caused all the fleshwarped trolls to wander around aimlessly and block the Hulks’ pathing. Only one Hulk managed to charge through, and since they couldn’t gang up on me, the whole crowd was swiftly cut down. The final build has enough CDR to throw 3 Flashbangs every 2 seconds, which offers a lot of protection against being mobbed. Even if there are 5 Hulks!
Temper provides both physical flat damage and +% physical damage for pets. Due to point shortage, the final build only has room for 1 point (+skills).
10 points is the optimal RR break point for Thermite Mines, so it’s a good target to shoot for while leveling. For the final build, one point was removed due to point shortage.
Thanks for clearing that up, all makes sense. I can’t see the videos because I have some Google data protection thing getting in the way but what u said sounds good.
I just got Hungering Void and I was struggling to find a skill to bind it to since i don’t have Thermite Mines yet. In the end i put a point in B.Pox early and just left it there because usnig it on Greater Fireblast made my life drop like hell every time it procs
At least HV levels up while it’s on BPox
I don’t think I’ll have enough skill slots on Skillbar 1 for all the skills in this build in the end (if i keep the life and energy pots on there as well)! I guess energy pots should never happen… hmm.
Thank you again for your answers on my last posts !
I am now level 76 in Ultimate and I’m doing fine. I have followed your advice : the more pets the better
I have crafted the Savage relic, I was lucky enough to drop Black Hand of Sanar’Siin (which summons Chthonian Devourers when hit) while waiting for Dracarris, I still have my Black Grimoire of Og’Napesh (hoping for the Empowered version to drop), and I’m still farming hoping to drop the Necromancer gloves and blueprint for Primal Instinct…
I have two questions for you :
1/ Why don’t you advise to take the familiar while leveling ? As you said the more pets the better and the familiar is an easy pet to get, giving you elemental resistance and flat damage etc… I just put 1 point in Familiar and 1 point in Storm spirit to test this new pet. I’m sure there is a reason you don’t advise to take it but I can’t see it … Please help me understand.
2/ The green items you have (chest, legs, …) are crafted items ? Would you have some recommendations for new players ? Good substitutes ? For now I am using the legendary item Beastcaller’s Shroud (chest) and some blue items to help with resistances…
Thank you in advance for your feedback
EDIT : for the second question on green items, I have checked and I will farm the Guardian of Bysmiel for the Legs, the Bloodsworn cultists for the Chest and Golum for the rings. I will try also to craft the boots, dunno if I need a blueprint or no… I will check ! I can see it gives you a lot of health and helps also a lot with resistances, it explains why I have so much difficulty to cap my resists at the moment. First question still valid though
I crafted Savage as well and it made a big difference. I have the blueprint for Primal Instinct but…
It needs other relics to make it, one of them is Nemesis and I don’t have that blueprint
Weird coincidence, just before I read your post I also had Black Hand of Sanar’Siin drop. Then a minute later a legendary dropped and I didn’t bother looking (they are hardly ever any good for the chars I’m playing)…
Then it turned out to be a sceptre called Black Scourge that summons some little critters that do a lot of chaos AoE but they don’t live long.
I was using Blackwood Wand before which is just a level 26 item but it has +1 Occultist skills.
So now I’m a bit undecided, having 3 choices. Tempted to go with Black Scourge because it’s a legendary but just a level 50 one - the critters/bonuses are powerful but the blue Sanar’Sin is lvl 60 and it says the spawn scales with pet bonuses… so it might be better.
But I’m not sure how powerful +1 Occultist skills is, since it adds to so many areas it’s hard to tell… so any of the 3 could be right.
pets 4 life!!
