[1.2.1.0] Hungering whispers - Chillwhisper cold/vitality DE Apostate [6.30 Crucible, SR81]

meme

We’re vitality hybrid now! Much less blue, much more red, better survivability but still no damage and no item support. Credit to @Nery for creating original concept, big thanks to @tqFan and @lMarcusl for help with troubleshooting the OG cold build.

GT link: Apostate, Level 100 (GD 1.2.1.0) - Grim Dawn Build Calculator

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Playstile:

Standard Inquisitor channeler. Stand in the Seal channeling Drain Essence, cast Rune of Hagarrad on CD. If you need to move, make sure you can recast the Seal on arrival.

Features:

Tanky - and much more tanky than the previous iteration. It can ignore boss mechanics at farmable SR levels, it can generally go higher now. Hurray!

Still prone to catastrophic pulls - I’ve spent a lot of effort originally eliminating Ill omen from the build - but now we have Hand of Ultos to pull things into us from offscreen! At SR 85, main cause of death is “HOW THE FUCK DID YOU GET AGGROED OVER THERE”. It is what it is, exercise caution.

Half-decent damage - it’s not good, it’s not Reaper-levels, but it’s an improvement over cold, especially in AOE department. Kuba still dies from old age mostly (because it resists all our damage).

Itemization:

Pants - the value here is in “of Incantations” suffix, as we rely on it for disruption protection. Otherwise you will die of crayfish. So try to score those pants with the suffix at least, or try Mythical Arcane Harmony Leggings as substitute. Just be mindful of elemental resistance - it will go below 80% outside of the Seal, which isn’t optimal.

Offhand - the main value is in Essence Drinker’s prefix, as it patches our casting speed. Try to get some OA on suffix. The item itself can not be substituted, as it dictates entirety of the build here. The conversion percentage, due to a lot of back-and-forth in the build, is relevant in one exact case - the higher your conversion, the faster you will kill Moosa’s summoned crystals. Which is an important task, so 50%+ conversion is desirable.

On the conflicting conversions and the pain of being an Apostate:

So, yeah. The Leafmane trophy. Let’s talk the yeti in the room.

Theoretically speaking, LT is the dream item for the build. It gave poor Alice much needed flat damage to DE, increased lifeleech, casting speed, some Inquisitor love AND resist shred! All of those fun things that only Reapers usually get, amazing! It’s really a shame that said shred is for vitality, huh… And there’s a global elemental to vitality conversion… On a cold build…

Well, turns out it’s not all bad. Due to how DE acquires most of its cold damage, the global vitality conversion almost doesn’t affect it, and it remains mostly cold. And suddenly, a lot of misaligned Inquisitor elemental damages get converted to vitality - we’re talking relic proc, Aura of Censure, the whole seal and Hand of Ultos proc. So whatever damage we lose due to the trophy, we get back elsewhere. Mostly.

This leaves the biggest victim of said conversion - Rune of Haggarad, which just casually becomes half-vitality. With the recent changes to activation time RoH became a much more reliable skill, we now have the points to spare for it, and it steps in to replace AOE we lost from Leviathan. Don’t misunderstand me - RoH is NOT a Blade Spirit, it will NEVER be as good as Blade Spirit, Chillwhisper is really a BS-supporting set in disguise, and any DE or RoH bonuses it has is mostly for bad ERP like what this build does.

But it’s a fun bad ERP, so we integrate more vitality damage and shred into the build to support the poor rune. Too bad we still can’t convert pierce on the thing, as Morgoneth ring loses us too much casting speed to be practical, and there are no other options. This whole process also brings us to the second biggest discovery of the build - Rattosh.

Rattosh is a chad. We aren’t even after his Vitality RR, though it’s good - the real prize here is 10% reduction of lifeleech resistance, which FINALLY makes DE lifeleech competetive with… literally any other skill if I’m being honest. This reduction would probably find its value even on the “pure” cold build, and together with 5% leech on the Trophy FINALLY brings the build to a reliable tanking potential.

1.2.1.0 endgame performance:

SR:

SR 81, no deaths. Getting killed here will require some active effort. 80-81 and anything below is consistently farmable.

SR 85 can be cleared deathless and on time, but it requires some luck with shards and pulls. All nemeses and most shattered bosses still can be facetanked, though paying attention to the sunders and mechanics is a better idea by now.

Crucible:

Full buffs without extra spawn at 6.18. As proud as I am of that result, the run was an outlier and consistent clear times remains somewhere at 6.50-7.00, on par with the previous build. It’s less due to damage being bad, and more due to the need to walk towards distant targets and place our stuff. We aren’t mobile. At all.

Full buffs with extra spawn at 7.01. I mean… This is ALSO almost a minute faster than the previous build results… I’m shaving off 30 seconds off the CR number in the title. Poor Alice deserves it.

Legacy link for the OG cold build. I really liked the way it looked: Apostate, Level 100 (GD 1.2.0.2) - Grim Dawn Build Calculator

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hello there!

may I suggest making some tweaks to your build, probably sth like this: Apostate, Level 100 (GD 1.1.9.8) - Grim Dawn Build Calculator
a bit better phys res, capped slow, more energy regen and better skills distribution (like you really need to max Artifact Handling while playing runes).

unfortunately, it will be nigh impossible to do any supers (except for maybe Mog).

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Good variant!

I’ve been experimenting a lot with RoH point distributions in previous patch. Sadly, my conclusion is that the build is explicitly NOT an RoH build, and as such I’d rather put more focus into DE. Adding or substracting points from any of the 3 RoH damage nodes made almost no observable difference back then. It’s slightly more of a difference now due to flat buffs, but barely. The rune here is mostly to serve as eye candy, to debuff, and to proc devos, in that priority order :joy:

The build also used to be really dependent on the combination of its debuffs to just live. It got better, but I really don’t want to test it without Blood Boil.

Edit: I also have to point out that Ultos devotion path still isn’t sustainable energy-wise, which is why I abandoned it for Leviathan/Harp initially, with Scales replacing Harp to iron it out completely. In prolonged fights (Crucible in particular) it will run out of energy sooner than energy potion comes off cooldown.

1.2.1.0 state:

Class changes:

Necro:
Drain essence/ Decomposition - OA shred increase
Blood boil - damage increase
Spectral binding - health increase

Inquisitor:
Word of Renewal/ Vigor - now grants armor. Fuck yeah.
Rune of Hagarrad - arming time is 1 second now. Double fuck yeah.

Devotion changes:

Amatok - increased DoT on activated skill. No other increases for our purposes.
Lion - lost health, gained 30 armor
Tortoise - lost health and phys res, gained flat 80 and 8% armor.
Owl - increased DoT duration
Leviathan - increased DoT on activated skill

Item changes:

Mythical Screams of the Aether: reduced Confusion and Cooldown on the skill proc and increased its Radius
Mark of the Shadow Queen: added +2 Radius modifier for Aura of Censure
Stoneplate Greaves: increased % Physical Resist to 5%
Rare Prefix - Tempest: replaced % Offensive Ability with Offensive Ability

1.2.1.0 preliminary thoughts:

Physical damage rebalance loses us 5% resist, yet grants big benefits from the overall physical damage getting toned down. Build also gains extra armor, so overall survivability is marginally better. Armor, armor everywhere.

At SR85, Iron Maiden is a comfortable facetank (without sunder). Valdaraan and Reaper (with sunder) are less comfortable, but still facetanks. Fabius is still a flip of a coin. Kuba is a terrible slog but safe. Musaalake is a huge threat that demands precise execution. Hero ganks are still deadly.

Build lost quite a chunk of offensive ability with Tempest changes. Deadly aim pushes us back into acceptable brackets, still procs reliably, and RoH debuff is easier to apply now, so not all is lost.

Overall, survivability is marginally better, damage is marginally worse.

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Why it still sucks ass: notes for begging Zantai for new itemization in expac

  1. Cold DE is just a bad skill with this set (and maybe just bad overall):

1.1: It can deal 2 times more damage than now, and both AAR and FoI will still win over it due to sheer AOE potential. While chad AAR caster damages the whole screen in front of him, virgin DE user will still be running to enter the pitiful cast radius to attack its max 11 targets cap. FoI is more comparable due to its own crippled range, but…

1.2: It’s borderline impossible to plug % weapon damage into DE. There’s exactly one item in the whole game that does that - Night herald, which comes at a non-viably high opportunity cost, competing with main hand, and demanding dual wielding to be taken in offhand. Where it still competes with offhands. This heavily limits the damage DE can deal, while also feeding into its terrible lifeleech. We’re getting there. Meanwhile FoI casually pumps 58% weapon damage on its core node, which can be further improved by items. AAR potentially can get 16% from BiS neck slot, on top of its overall superior range. That and 1.1 culminate in…

1.3: …our final destination - DE lifeleech is a joke. It’s 15% on core. Paired with its AOE problems, that’s absolutely not enough. You can increase it to 25% with Vigar’s hunger, but it competes for a slot with vitality>cold conversion. Meanwhile, AAR gets to the 15% with a BiS offhand and one of 2 BiS amulets. The second BiS amulet is Conduit with % weapon damage, so that also leeches. FoI easily leeches with its native weapon damage. Both FoI and AAR will leech off anything in their radius, while DE is capped at 11 targets tops (actually lower, because that’s with MI). GG.

Bottomline: at the endgame level with itemization at hand, cold DE is a skill with barely competitive damage, absolutely noncompetitive AOE and barely competitive lifeleech. FoI is strictly superior. AAR is infinitely superior to both. Conversion options for cold DE further cripple it, where both AAR and FoI find their conversions casually on native sets and their own mutators.

  1. RoH is a terrible skill, and Chillwhisper is a terrible set to support it:

2.1: Runes suck. Period. Between RoH and RoK, the first sucks even more. It needs more skill points to dump into than RoK, it doesn’t shotgun like RoK does, it has no immediate effect like RoK does, it has worse coverage than RoK. It’s trash.

2.2: Chillwhisper sucks. Chad Ardor of Octavius set offers to RoK the following: 400 internal trauma over 2 seconds, 240 physical damage, and 100% fire damage converted to physical. Virgin Chillwhisper set offers: 600 frostburn over 3 seconds, 80 fucking cold damage, and meaningless 33% energy cost reduction. No pierce to cold conversion. Do i really need to explain which set supports its respective rune better? Really. 80 fucking damage. Pierce to cold conversion is strictly unavailable to the build, requiring either a dualwield weapon or rings competing with RR options. Fuck.

Bottomline: runes are inherently bad, and RoH is inherently worse than RoK, with infinitely worse support from supposedly dedicated set. RoH is a terrible fucking skill with 0 redeeming qualities to it.

  1. Itemization for cold DE apostate doesn’t exist. It’s all for Reaper.

Chillwhisper itself is a Reaper set, giving it a secondary skill in form of Blade spirit that just shits all over RoH. BS gets full pierce to cold conversion from the set, lifeleech and comparable (if not superior) damage bonuses, while not being a garbage rune.

Riftwarped grasp - vitality/chaos item for Cabalists. Mandatory regardless.

Cord of violent decay - spellbinder/defiler support.

Night herald - spellbinder support.

Scion of bitter winds - reaper support, loses half its value otherwise.

Leafmane trophy - an actual apostate support, but only for vitality DE and with conflicting conversions. Fuck.

Grasp of the dead - reaper support, loses half its value otherwise.

Gravetouch - reaper/oppressor support, loses half its value otherwise.

Speaker for the dead - reaper support, if for a different skill. Only has value for its RR shred.

Vigar’s hunger - native necro item, yay. No bonuses to inquisitor.

Deathbound amethyst - reaper support, still has value though.

Ilgorr’s eternal vigil - reaper support, loses half its value otherwise.

Bottomline: fuck Apostate. It terribly lacks items to support it, above all a viable offhand choice. While at current point in the game it’s probably too late to ask for items like that, I put my hopes into FoA release to rectify this damn mess.

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You know what? Fuck this. Maybe we aren’t good. Maybe there is no good cold Apostate setup, maybe cold DE is reaper-exclusive. Maybe we need GDstashed greens just to function. So what? Let’s embrace the madness.

We aren’t good, but that’s not bad. We’re bad, but that’s good. Let’s build a cold/vitality hybrid. Let’s pump conflicting conversions, because hey - the Reapers can do it.

Above is an experimental setup pending current testing. So far the results at SR85 are promising - as in “better than building cold or ripping off TQfan’s Reaper setup”. But I’m currently swamped at my job, so testing will take a few days, and, if successful, IDK when I’ll rewrite the guide.

So far it performs much safer against the hero hordes - comfortably even, as lifeleech is much higher than before. It also reaches consistency against Fabius at SR85, where the previous build did not.

Final edit and thoughts: the current version achieves full consistency at SR85 against all the usual suspects. It can withstand the hero hordes now. It can facetank all nemeses through their Sunder mechanics with exception of Iron maiden (because why on earth would you even try). It can facetank absolute majority of Shattered bosses - you can even try your luck not moving against Outcast and Gargabol, though I wouldn’t recommend it. Actual non-braindead piloting should provide even more consistent results.

As for damage - I tried TQFans Reaper at the same SR level. We are NEVER getting that damage. Not even close. While our numbers may look comparable on paper, and while RoH is finally a skill worth putting points into, it’s nowhere close to what 4 Blade spirits provide to Reaper. And it will take, like, doubling or tripling the RoH damage to reach it - so not in this lifetime. Blade spirits are BS. And we still do the absolutely retarded conversion hybrid after all.

We are somewhat tankier though. Who would have guessed.

Retarded math sheet:

Chillwhisper crown always produces less vit>cold conversion than offhand elemental>vit. Current items at 30% and 40% respectfully.

DE native is:

290 cold (unconvertable)
234 vitality
1102 decay

Items flat:

180 cold
198 vitality

432 convertable vitality total

Items DE conversions:

75% vit>cold
40% ele>vit

Thus after conversion:

290 cold
324 cold (conv)
108 vit (left)
72 vit (conv)
108 cold (left)
826 frostburn (conv)
275 decay (left)

Total DE(should be multiplied by 1.15):
722 cold
180 vit
826 frostburn
275 decay

The rest of elemental damage (AoC, RoH, various procs) are straightforward 40% ele>vit conversion, except seal. The rest of vitality damage is straightforward 30% vit>cold.

Overall value of vitality resist shred depends on the balance of head/offhand conversions.

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