85 Warder (Ultimate) questions and feedback

Grim Dawn Classes, Skills and Builds
1

Hello

I’ve been playing Grim Dawn since its early days… I have a lot of characters level 30-40 that I stopped playing with each expansion. Always went back to a pet build or a warder. I’ve played a pure shaman to 50 and a pure solider to 50. So I’m very good at the skill trees with them. I changed them around ALOT during my levels from 50+ to manage resist/armor - different builds either Phys with some lighting… or Lighting with some Phys.

My questions is since I had all this extra gear and stuff in my bank from my pervious warders… playing him has been fun and I haven’t had a single problem with Veteran or Elite. I actually found Elite to be easier then Veteran by far… because of the level 50 epics. Right when I hit level 50 I had the “Stone fist Rebuke” (which is best 2hand wep for Phys dmg)… in fact I’m still using it and will be for awhile… and a couple other really nice Legendarys. So when I started Elite I had like 25k dmg and 12k health. I literally didn’t get an upgrade from those level 50 legendarys til I hit 85 and found 1-2 greens/blues that were better.

When I hit Ultimate - I had a problem with Poison res - cause as a Warder we have none that comes on gear… so I had to swap some pieces - rings - components - rep enchants (those 3 things allowed me to continue tearing a path through Ultimate. Only really having trouble in a couple places. Which was ALWAYS remedied by crafting some resist potions (which last for 7 mins btw)

My stats at 85 --> - all stats points into Physq - just a few for jewelry.
16-18k (health) --> 27k dps (unbuffed) self buffed its about 35k (Savagery)

(Resists)
I have 85 res Fire/Ice/Light 60 Pierce (top row)
I have 80 Bleed/ 66 Vitality/54 Aether/ 37 Chaos

my attack speed with weapon is Extremely high for 2hand @ 133% (unbuffed)
140% with savagery. Its like a 180 in total… but diminishing returns.

Which allows me to proc Feral Hunger ALOT (regen proc) - I have over 300 regen while normally.

I also multiple layers of Defense via Giants Blood - Life Steal devos - and a few others… I hardly die… unless Im standing inside a Aether aoe or a Chaos aoe.

I just wanted to double check with people about where they stand with there warders - res - health - DPS - areas they have trouble? or ideas I could use.

Steps of Torments - with a few res potion are pretty easy if I pay attention to floor dmg.

Same thing with bastion of Choas - a few res potions to bring ALL my resist to 80 or 85… then I just face tank most stuff.

(thanks for everyone who read this and gives me some feedback)

I would love to post my spec/build on here… but don’t know how?>

Last question… which Relic should I be using at 85. I have most Relics Tier 1+2+3 recipes… none of the Legendary ones.

lvl 18 was Calamity lvl 25 was the Mistborn Tailsmen lvl 35 Im using the Juggernaut. I wanna make the lvl 60+ relic… wondering if I should make the lvl 50-60.

2

If you have the Oleron’s Wrath blueprint, go for it, otherwise just stick to Juggernaut. Aegis is a decent choice too but since you have no troubles surviving BoC then I don’t really think you need it.

3

Savagery Warders are much better off going for lightning damage than physical.

I posted my setup in a separate thread yesterday, so go there for more details/explanations. This is the gist of it:

If you want physical damage, you are much better off going Witchblade with Blade Arc.

4

Why would you recommend witchblade? I am not sure what is additive and multiplicative in the following and it is untested theory but just looking over the trees, here is what i see:

Shaman (NOTE: I am not counting Upheaval which is another 100% damage)
+55% Physical Damage (Brute Force)
+32.5% Weapon Damage (Feral Hunger average)
+108% Physical Damage (Primal Bond)
+100% Physical Damage (Entangling Vines)
+100% Weapon Damage (Savagery with just 1 point, once charged)
+50% Physical Damage (Storm Touched in Savagery Tree)
+200% Weapon Damage & 210 Physical Damage (Primal Strike)
+36% Weapon Damage (Torrent from Primal Strike Tree)
+75% Physical Damage (Storm Surge from Primal Tree)

+437.5% Increase to Physical Damage (2h melee Savagery)
+358.0% Increase to Physical Damage (range Savagery)

+606.5% Increase to Physical Damage (2h melee Primal Strike)
+519.0% Increase to Physical Damage (2h range Primal Strike)

vs.

Occultists
+15% Attack Speed (Solael’s Witchfire)
-39% Physical Resistance (Curse)

Granted there might be situations where any debuff would be better than pure damage, for instance an enemy with 100% physical resistance which can only be damaged via curse. This is true for anything that has 95% or greater physical resist but after that, the huge gap in damage might overcome the resistance problem. This is an even smaller problem if the player can get a debuff from another source (need to check the devotion tree and items).

The Attack Speed is nice but is ultimately a linear increase in damage. You do get more procs but 15% vs around 400% damage is a world of difference unless there is a proc that grants about 2600% damage (400%/0.15)…

Am I missing something?

5

It’s only true if you got a proper gear for it. Shaman’s legendaries strongly support lightning damage. So, when your toon is “clad in legendaries”, ligtning suddenly becames better.
When you dont have access to things like Ultos’ Set and other great legendaries, physical and lightning are kinda even. I’d even say, physical is better as 1-st toon, and easier to level up.
In endgame, physical build needs some MI with pretty good rare rolls to be on par with lightning. And those are much harder to obtain, that legendaries (considering treasure trove abuse).

It’s pretty simple - Occultist has Curse of Frailty skill, that reduced enemy physical resistance, and skyrockets your damage. Resistance reduction is the best way to increase your damage. Endgame toons can have 1000-1500% increased damage, so extra +100% isnt so big deal as -40% resistance.
Of course, if you want a physical Savagery build, you may use Conjurer instead. If Blade Arc - Witchblade.

Oh, and you should read a bit aboute games mechanics… I dont really want to explain it all in this little thread, would take too long… At least, read the guide and learn basics.

6

Fair enough, I just read the mechanics thread. Pretty much what I said remains on point except I didnt account for max damage at high level. So math wise here is the bottom line; if toons end up with 1000%-1500% increase in damage, then the addition of 350% to 600% amounts to the following:

(350/1000 + 350/1500)/2 to (600/1000 + 600/1500)/2
or
29.2% to 50% increase in damage on average (assuming only hard points)

That said, CoF is retarded. It offers all the above with only 11 points invested into Occult which means you have tons of points to spend elsewhere. The other good skill in Occult would be the Blood of Dreeg for heals. The bad news is that you are limited to only Blade Arch (good) and Cadence (not good)… the other issue is the entire tree can be 70%-85% (depending on points) replaced by a single “of the abyss” weapon (% reduction not stackable).

  • We are not accounting for skill increases beyond hard points. All numbers will be higher if you go beyond hard points for both occult and shaman but note that the curse has diminishing returns past 10 points of only 1% per point. Even if you had +10 point to all occult skills, the max curse will only provide 52% reduction which is still in line with the max range of the average damage (with only hard points) noted above. In other words, what I said previously remains true. The difference is very small unless you fight something with extreme physical (and bleed) resistances that cannot be hurt without a debuff. Of course the opposite is also true… if something is spell immune (cant be cursed) then occult has trouble. I am not sure if those exist in this game.

  • Synergies… The Shaman tree can maximize both physical and bleeding damage at the same time since they are tied together. You could always swap Savagery for Blade Arc to get both maximum physical and bleed later on (you will need mana regen for this). With Occult your physical damage output will always be about 30%-50% lower (assuming no extra skill points) no matter what you do and is only made great due to CoF. No CoF = iffy physical damage output.

Its just my opinion, and again its untested, but it seems to me that for physical damage, a Warden + Abyss should come out on top by a large margin. Im testing the warden.

7

That not how most of these things works. For example, Entangling Vines physical damage bonus only applies to Grasping Vines. Savagery lvl 1 is not +100% wpn dmg, but 100% wpn dmg. etc.

Either way, % dmg bonuses to specific types are meh, they are much easier to get trough items/constellations. With occultist you get speed, massive OA and, most importantly, res reduction to two main dmg types (physical and bleeding).

It’s not even comparable.

8

You still dont understand.
“Upgrades” for skills in skill tree affect only THOSE skills, usually (as it was said in previous post). Also, your number of skill points is limited. You cant learn every skill you want. Actually, you’ll have to skip several passives, even, not to mention active skills! Occultist tree has only few useful skills, but those are extremely point-efficient. That’s why it is so good.

9

Still, we talk dmg, resist reduction.
What about Feral hunger in Shaman tree?
What about 40% more life from shaman tree? Giving your % life back devotions and menehirs will an insane boost.

How about Wendigo Totem, with a few measy skill points, coupled with correct devotions, near unkillable.

Sure Witchblade is cool on paper and smacks things around.
But when you want to just run into a pack of 20 mobs, face tank and sham them down. Warder will do this a hell of a lot more efficient and free of any worry compared to a witchblade.

And for Hardcore, its not even a question. Warder 100% over Witchblade.

A little more dmg is cool but at the cost of 40% more hp and an insane amount of survival through feral hunger and wendigo totem?
Not a chance.

10

Still, we talk dmg, resist reduction.
What about Feral hunger in Shaman tree?
What about 40% more life from shaman tree? Giving your % life back devotions and menehirs will an insane boost.

How about Shamans Primal Bond, which is what you want to go for as a warder.
Best keystone for any physical, bleed build in game. Going for Solider keystones dont come near what you get with Primal bond.
Not to mention the pure dmg reduction.

How about Wendigo Totem, with a few measy skill points, coupled with correct devotions, near unkillable.

Sure Witchblade is cool on paper and smacks things around.
But when you want to just run into a pack of 20 mobs, face tank and sham them down. Warder will do this a hell of a lot more efficient and free of any worry compared to a witchblade.

And for Hardcore, its not even a question. Warder 100% over Witchblade.

A little more dmg is cool but at the cost of 40% more hp and an insane amount of survival through feral hunger and wendigo totem?
Not a chance.

I run a wardere with Dryad, Behemoth and Tip the Scales, kraken etc for dmg, hammer, etc. Smaller things.
But they are all % life based apart from Behemoth with the insane life regen as well, which coupled with Menehirs will makes you unkillable.
Those devotions with Soliders 20% and Shamans 40% life, for a total of plus 60% life, compared to Occultist having the lowest hp pool available.

The time it takes for an occultist to to move through content is longer since he have to run back and forth to ensure survival.
The warder can just ignore the 10 mobs hacking on him and move forward.
The warder with correct setup face tank 3 hero mobs and 3 pack of mobs while watching simpsons.
The witchblade, he runs:)

No but seriously, look at the complete picture as well not just pure dmg.
And the dmg from Shaman and solider tree compliment eachother extremly well. For more points yes, but do not forget the insane passives you have in both of these trees, and not that wendigo is needed so much but if you want to use it, it adds another layer of close to retarded survival.
For Ultimate and Hardcore Warder is a far better choice then Witchblade. Even with bis gear.
Being able to kill a mob faster does not always mean you can move through content faster. And the warder will move through content faster then a witch blade in 9 out of 10 cases out of shere brute force through survival and overall high dmg. Not the extreme dmg of witchblade, but the survival is uncomparable.