A Digression on Difficulty

There has been a lot of debate about the difficulty of Fangs of Asterkarn and whether certain bosses / features should be nerfed, including some criticism from people who haven’t even played the expansion. I don’t envy Zantai, who seems stuck between trying to make a game that a lot of people can enjoy and catering to the top one percent (or less) of the Grim Dawn community who is worried that ascendant difficulty isn’t scaled to SR40 or some similar level of challenge. Most of the changes that have happened since release have been very good changes. Making the Dread optional. Bravo. Making nemesis spawns a bit less ubiquitous in ascendant difficulty. Same. Reverting the 1.3 changes that buffed physical damage to some bosses and that caught a lot of players out. Well done.

Given the heat that these changes have generated on the forums, where complaining that a game one has spent thousands of hours on is too easy (ignoring the fact that it is probably too easy because they’ve spent thousands of hours on it to the point where they have no idea what a new player’s experience would be like) is an honored pastime, I’m glad to see Crate sticking to them. It is very true to the spirit of letting people play the game the way they want. The fun, wonky builds that would get wrecked in other ARPGs still get to be viable in Grim Dawn at least until you start to push endgame content. You don’t need build guides to have fun in this game. You might need a build guide or some good understanding of making builds to play in ascendant difficulty which, complaints notwithstanding, is a noticeable step up from ultimate even in its base form.

Personally, I’ve played thousands of hours and made hundreds of builds on hardcore, so I can appreciate the desire for challenge, but I also stream the game which means I talk to people who are newer to the game as well as some veterans who are not looking to turn Grim Dawn into Dark Souls. To be clear, I do not think that Grim Dawn has become Dark Souls or anything like that, but there have been comments supportive of games like Elden Ring in comments on various patch notes. This isn’t Elden Ring and that’s a very good thing. Even if you don’t care about hardcore balance, and I realize that many complaining about how easy the game is may not play hardcore (again, totally fine, play the game how you like, that’s the point), an ARPG and a souls-like are different genres. I’m also very glad Grim Dawn is not POE2. You have the option to play both without trying to push one game too far in a direction that it wasn’t meant to go.

There has always been a solution for people who say the game is too easy. The base campaign is something that people have been able to complete on ultimate with meme builds and all sorts of fun concepts that are sometimes kind of bad. That the game lets people play almost any way they want as long as they don’t want to ramp up the difficulty is a positive, not a negative. Much more fun than praying that the exalted orb actually gives you want you want so your damage can be serviceable in POE2. For people who want to play the campaign and be more challenged, Fangs of Asterkarn gave us ascendant difficulty which comes complete with tempest totems and the Dread. This never existed before. It is a net positive for anyone who wants a more challenging experience. And then you can customize it to make it as hard or easy as you like. Crate has given people more tools than they have ever had before to make the game harder and some are bothered by Crate not wanting to make the game harder for everyone, especially on something like normal difficulty (where the phys damage changes on some bosses were particularly noticeable).

There have always been options for veteran players to challenge themselves. Pushing deeper into SR, going for faster Crucible clears, etc. Now there’s a campaign mode that brings some of that possible challenge and it is completely customizable. Creating an experience that is new player friendly or just friendly to people who are happy Grim Dawn is not Dark Souls isn’t easy and Crate has done a great job of making the game accessible to a lot of people while still letting people make it harder for themselves. I still disagree with some decisions that Crate has made and I will say that some of the new content is overtuned with respect to difficulty compared to the rest of the game. This matters from an internal consistency perspective as now as easy boss room in SR basically means no FoA bosses. This will hopefully be sorted in time because we do typically want to see a somewhat consistent challenge, even if there is a bit of difficulty creep in each release. “A bit” being the key phrase.

The Dread or nemesis monsters spawning less often in ascended mode doesn’t make the content too easy. It just means you are doing one particular challenge less often. Not everyone wants to fight seven nemesis mobs in a dungeon. That’s not because the nemesis mobs are too difficult in most cases, but because we want to actually get through the dungeon. I don’t care if ascended difficulty is an endgame mode. I don’t need to fight five nemesis monsters in one dungeon. If you want to fight more nemesis monsters, you actually have an option to make that happen. So juice the altar and enjoy yourself. The game is too easy for you, so monsters doing more damage can’t be a problem, right? Have fun. The great thing about Grim Dawn is that nearly everyone can play the way they like without getting stomped by unfair content.

TLDR: Just remember this. If you think the game is too easy, you have many options to make it more difficult. It is much easier for you to do this than it is for someone just starting out or someone experienced who likes a more chill ARPG experience to just get good. I’m not immune to falling out of touch with what average or newer players experience. But let’s remember that one reason why there is an active community of very experienced, talented players here is because Crate first and foremost made a game that a lot of people enjoyed playing.

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Right. But when one starts seeing things like health nerfs on ascendant difficulty, the question comes up whether we aren’t going to see the same slippery slope of incremental patches that eventually turned ultimate difficulty into easy mode.

I don’t want to blame players or Crate. It’s a process. There will always be a pressure to nerf the game, regardless of difficulty or features. Even a feature like the Ascension Altar will serve as the background for players to claim the game is too hard. The idea of a true hard mode only seems to work these days if it doesn’t introduce any new content or features. As soon as some kind of reward exists for the hard mode, everyone will want to jump in, including those that shouldn’t. And then the question becomes how much pressure they can put on the developers and how much more of the “making money” argument will be thrown around to justify slowly changing the initial vision of the game.

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introduces powercreep
“game got easier”
just play naked/classless/lvl 1 ultimate ascendant 5:5 Altar/no hit runs/blindfolded/only do peak endgame/gimp yourself and don’t care about MC+progression
“i like MC/progression”
you already did that hundreds of hours/your fault you’re good at it now/stop doing the thing you enjoy and make things harder for yourself artificially
“i’d just like endgame buffs to stay about endgame so MC/progression is similar to X years ago”
stop that and play in different ways you don’t enjoy instead to create your own challenge instead of enjoying what you used to

somethingsomething round and round we goes…

there can be merits in both nerfs and buffs to difficulty sometimes,
new players today don’t get the same experience new players did couple years ago, or 5, or 10.
Which new player experience is it then that should be aimed at being maintained ?
*i do not envy Crate this dilemma at all, nor going to pretend i “know” better

If anything i’m curious how a director’s cut/“no holds tears barred”-edition would look like, (even if it was too much for me), where they never relented to complaints about boss difficulty nor requests buffing XY build for the third time :sweat_smile: Logh not letting us finish base game on Ult even with FoA buffs and pots perhaps? or the Maneater as dangerous as Calla ? “how ridiculous would Beronath have been if the dev gloves had come off” :scorv:

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That was 1.3.0.0.

Exactly.

i’d almost bet you v1.3.0.0 was already toned down for the general public :sweat_smile:
“/something about Crate having pulled the punches ever since early access days” :scorv:

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Ascendant Gargabol needs some looking at still. The volcanoes he spawns are basically instakills on any build that doesn’t have 3500+ armor and 30+ phys res since they spawn at your feet and shotgun.
It’s bad when fully juiced ascendant Ravager of flesh is easier then Gargabol.

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AoM monsters vastly exceeded the difficulty of vanilla ones (loxmere excluded). Both on-release and now.

FG monsters vastly exceeded the difficulty of AoM monsters. Both on-release and now.

Let’s not be surprised that this pattern continues. You require prior expansions to play subsequent ones. While they may vary chronologically or in terms of when they can be accessed along the campaign, there is a functional gap in anticipated experience from one to the next.

image

Neither of these hypothetical people should be jumping into Ascendant.

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Just do the Crate Director’s Cut in Elite, so only those who know will see it.

If only you could move after the obvious telegraph instead of eating it? But nah let’s nerf the boss instead because people just want to mindlessly facetank everything and never respect what the boss is doing. There are some attacks you’re simply meant to avoid and that was always one of them

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‘Mindlessly facetank’ is not what it is though. It takes good knowledge and gear acquisition to actually facetank any endgame boss, especially in Ascendant.

Sure, if you want to follow a guide or GDStash your way to #1 in the top 20 builds to do that, good for you. But the game is not tuned so that facetanking things (while still having good damage) is easy in endgame and if you are able to then well done on your investment, it’s successful.

Grim Dawn leans into the ‘stat check’ side of ARPG’s and I’m glad for it, because being able to facetank something is a measure of build capability and it feels good eventually to get there. Leave the souls-like constantly-dodge-or-die-no-matter-your-build’s-strength gameplay to PoE2 and NRFTW.

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When I invest 200h in to a character I really expect it to facetank 99% of the stuff apart from super bosses and 1-2 FU moves like Grava Balz and Gargabol,this is why I am investing so much time , too feel op and too feel powerfull and to farm gear faster.This is the core progression curve of traditional ARPGs. If I want to play a dodging simulator, there are better games designed especially for this.
Of course some people cant seem to understand this because they GD stash their gear and then complain that the game is too easy and they have nothing to do.

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ravager doesn’t scale on ascendant i’m told

as for gargabol, - someone already mentioned his telegraph/why are players ignoring it on ascendant

certain stuff was already lethal to non optimized stuff before
why are we surprised or against it suddenly being more lethal on ascendant, to where it then might even require respect by the optimized builds now?

that doesn’t make it dark souls… that means on the hardest scaling the hardest attacks need the hardest respect…

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Yeah that’s what I was saying. But there should be very few attacks that are truly not out-scalable in any way, and you learn those as reward for experience. For the rest, if you’ve built in appropriate death-prevention procs and manage your rotation, with enough investment you should be able to facetank with a build designed to do so (e.g. not a squishy build).

no disagreement on that, i guess we just disagree on which attacks constitute that “few” out-scaled allotted then on Ascendant :man_shrugging:
(see my complaints about Aleks meteor having been facetanked for far too long without Mirror/MoT)
If an attack is slow, highly telegraphed, and easily sidestepped without evade, volcano, meteor, Z shotgun, underking rock etc, perhaps those aren’t to be treated lightly as before,
-so by extension complaining about such non insta attacks causing insta deaths on Ascendant, might perhaps be taking the optional challenge mode too lightly

Being upset about Beronath’s doombolt 1shotting you from 5+ metres away, or some instant blade arc swing without cue, i can 100% understand; then what are you supposed to “react” to.
But the rest… (and vast majority of it), game is never going to merit the dark souls complaints from those - people just want to outstat more than intended now, and aren’t recognizing it by not respecting the attacks

*i’m very much assuming certain attacks are meant to be that way(“respected”) and not bugged, also judging by one of Z’s comments about Ascendant dmg complaints on Beronath sans bugged doom bolt

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Yes exactly, they should be enough to 1-shot you unless you Mirror/MoT/Blade Barrier it, otherwise there’s no hard decision to consider those options in your build. And that’s the tactical tools Grim dawn provides so you don’t need to dodge everything. But a purpose built tank should still be able to tank most things except those heavily telegraphed nukes (unlike say Ravager’s Sunder, which is very quick and hard to dodge).

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Yeah it’s just my concern (esp on ascendant) that fewer and fewer bosses will have such attacks due to people asking for nerfs, which homogenizes boss movesets to all feel ‘samey’, reducing threat to player and reducing engagement with boss/mechanics etc.
It’s been a trend over the years with some things, like Gnomish mentioned Aleks meteor but also Grava balls which got nerfed into ultra slow motion (Srsly look at how slow those things are and look at power creep of player mobility)
I want ascendant to keep pushing me to improve my builds :grin:

Don’t agree with this. Ascendant was meant to be more than just turning up the numbers. This makes it more like Ultimate+, which is less interesting.

This is more nuanced because it can be a question of fun/pacing rather than difficulty (provided the mobs themselves are not nerfed). I don’t know what the ideal spawn rate of nems is. It can be set too low, though.

I will probably come across as an arse saying this, but there was no meaningful damage spike (with the sole exception of phase 1 Ravna) and no need to revert. Then again, I can’t complain that it was reverted because it was barely a thing in the first place.

No one needs to get good if they don’t want to. They can just turn down the difficulty. In 1.2 Normal was changed to scale to 100 for exactly that reason, so that people that wanted a chill kick-back EZ-win mode would always have it.

I kind of agree with this. I do think that defensive stats should have value in this kind of game and that you should feel it if you build purely for damage with no regard for tankiness. At the same time, I think that evading things that can be evaded is cleaner and more satisfying than just soaking the damage.

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Feels like everyone has a different preference on it. Like take a bastion of chaos run for example - how many nem spawns would people think is good? I’ve had 5 in a single run of ascendant which felt good to me. I’m in the chthonic clubhouse, they should be sending those nems frequently to kick me out

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Then avoid the volcanoes. He telegraphes them.

There is no ascendant Ravager. He is the same as in ultimate.

Nemeses are on the same level now. Except those new ones… Other bosses are irrelelevant because they are easy.

I still do not understand how some people do not see this…

Make them harder! :smiley:

But a good character can still do that.

Seems to me that only people who do not play higher shards in SR complain about these things. Those who do are used to it. And very high SR is the Dark Souls experience. And that is why I mainly play that.

And it can.

Exactly that. Veteran like add-on for ultimate unfortunately…

I played veteran SSF MC after many many years on 1.3.0.0 and it was just easy as fuck… Looked at ultimate briefly and again - too easy.

Precisely. It is supposed to be an endgame mode! And Dread with them!

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I cant do that ,because in order to min-max my character I have to farm soul echoes and ashes and altar with 5 buffs is the most rewarding and you cant facetank most of the stuff there even with tank designed especially for that playstyle.And before you tell me that I dont need to min-max ,yes I do its called min-maxing and squeezing the maximum from your character only then its finished.

Yes i can lower the juice in the altar, but I won’t. The endgame is the altar with 5 buffs, because it is the most rewarding. If that wasn’t the case with the rewards, I won’t touch it. 200H I can spare for one character, but if I have to farm with 1-2 buffs, it will take 500h, and its a bit too extreme.