A 'point' system for offensive and defensive traits?

Yo!

I was thinking about coming up with a ‘point system’ because I want to make radar charts for character builds so it’s easy to, at a glance, see their strengths and deficiencies. But I have many messy thoughts on the idea and would love some help refining it. If we can come up with something nice, I might try and build it into GetGrimDawn or something so we can make nice data visualisations of our builds. :smiley:

Example of a radar chart:


I figured ultimately there’d be two charts, one for offense, one for defense. I was thinking of some kind of point system for each defensive attribute, where attributes are things like armour, physical resistance, damage absorption, etc. I guess for the purpose of data visualisation it makes sense that there’s a ‘maximum points’ that each attribute can achieve, so defining what makes ‘a point’ in each category becomes important.

For example, here are some off-the-top-of-my-head (read: arbitrary) numbers, like:

% Damage absorption: 1 point for every 10% damage absorption (This one’s tricky, as it has edge cases for things like Mirror or Mark of Torment which have potentially limited uptime)

Flat damage absorption: 1 point every 50 damage absorption

DA: 1 point for every 50 DA past 2,400. So 2,400 DA = 0 points. 2,500 = 2 points. 3,000 = 10 points.

Reduction to enemy damage: 1 point for every 3% of reduced damage to enemies? so, 6-8% damage absorption = 2 points, 9-12% = 3 points and so on. Of course you can get to 35% damage absorption (or higher for elemental damage) in game, but players don’t typically deal with decimals on their character sheets, so dividing 35% by 10 to get increments of 3.5% may not be super practical.

Phys Res: 1 point for every 8% points of resistance?

Health: 1 point for every 3k HP over 10k. 10k = 0 points. 13k = 1 point. 30k = 10 points.

Armour: 1 point per 500 armour. 1.5k armour = 3 point, 1.6k armour = 3 points. 2.4k armour = 4 points and so on ? Arbitrarily based on a ‘top number armour’ of 5k

Probably something to do with CC…

Maybe something to do with mobility (3 points per mobility skill, with evade = 3 points).


The top number can clearly be surpassed, but for the sake of data visualisation I thiiiink it makes sense to have an arbitrary ‘top number’. If you hit 10 points on any of these things, it’s clear at a glance on the radar chart that the build does very strongly in that area, which is really the point of this sort of thing I think (to get an overall idea of the build’s strengths and deficiencies quickly). For more accuracy, players can just checkout the specific stats in a grimtools link or something.

With this sort of measurement above, I could come up with this kind of chart for this build:

Which pulls these scores with the above system:

Armour: 5
DA: 8
% Absorption: 6
Flat Absorption: 2
Phys Res: 6
Health: 10
Damage Reduction: 8


Is this the sort of thing that people would find interesting when looking through character builds?

If so, is this point system good? Bad?

If it was helpful, what would a point system for offensive traits look like? Maybe something like:

% Damage: every 250% past 1000%. So, 3000% damage = 8 points. (Arbitrary top number 3,500%)

Crit Damage: 1 point per 12% crit damage (arbitrary top number 120%)

Offensive Ability: 1 point for every 100 OA past 2400, so 2,500 OA = 1 point. 3,500 OA = 10 points. Beyond that, it’s presumed that this build is built for OA when looking at the chart.

I guess it gets tricky when you start trying to factor in specific weapon damage or skills/devotion damage with attack or cast speed, or pets…

Maybe there need to be slightly different models for different types of character. Like, channeled skill builds (eg Albrecht’s Ray) should take into account casting speed and flat damage on the channeled skill.

Then there’s dot builds and so on.

Maybe this is actually too hard with too many distinct separate cases to do evenly?

What do we all think?

4 Likes

I think that’s a great idea in theory, and I like the radar chart and effort put into thinking about this.

It would be nice to have some kind of standardized rating to auto-populate from grimtools data to characterize the relative strength of builds, but honestly, I think there’s probably too much nuance and complexity to have a universal strength value (or set of values) for overall build strength comparison. Which is definitely to the good otherwise the game would have gotten boring fast if the mechanics were simpler.

Realistically I think most numerical rating comparisons would only be relevant for comparing builds of the same class. And even that might be somewhat limited in value if devotions and skill selection result in wildly different play styles for those same classes too.

So it’s basically down to run timing and what endgame content a build can clear that ultimately demonstrates it’s relative strength, the things pretty much everyone already uses in their build posts. That said, it could just be a lack of imagination on my part, but that’s my 2 cents.

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I agree that if the nuance isn’t adequately captured, then whatever data shown is likely to be misleading or unhelpful. Or, if people follow along strictly to get the ‘data’ looking right in their build, it might limit the flow of creative possibilities, some of which might be unexpectedly powerful.

But it also does make me wonder if there’s a way to come up with an overall model or something.

But you’re right, maybe the metrics that we currently have (CR 150? 170? SR 90+? Celestials?) is the best/simplest way to determine a character’s strengths.

But I would still love to, somehow, be able to at a glance get an idea of how a character’s made. Like…

Caster, with a focus on crit damage and high OA.

Or, Pets with a focus on total damage to 2 pets vs a billion skeletons.

… or something. It might not be possible. I just like graphs. :3

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Obviously no chart will be able to ever properly represent all the nuances of the performance of a build, but I love these kinda graphs and I do think that they can give a great overview of a build’s sheet stats!

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I wonder if there could be a way to kinda include all the possible ‘offensive attributes’, anything from OA to pet damage or number of pets, or like cooldown reduction on a particular skill (Trozan’s) etc… Users would be able to select which traits are relevant to their build “Mine’s a dual-wield nightblade, so I want to see chance to proc WPS and average % weapon damage per attack with Righteous Fervor + WPS, crit damage, % damage and OA”. Or something like that…

So I guess by default the graph could show EVERYTHING and be super messy, and then users can opt out of things “I don’t have pets” or “I don’t use cast speed” etc.

Then, with that kind of system it’d be really easy to have ‘templates’, for like “Pet build”, “retaliation build”, “Channeled caster”, “Ranged build” etc. A template would just be a grouping of typically relevant offensive attributes, and then players can still tweak their graph from there, make additions or subtractions. ie: Start off with “retaliation” template, but add “casting speed” (etc) for retaliatoin casters… Or something.

OA and DA could be represented by a probability to hit/be hit by a 3000 oa/da or raveger idk. Then you texhnically fit it on 0-100 scale.
For OA crit chance could be added , but you would probably want it as its own graph.

In general I think having some score system like 0-10 just adds a loop to go though to know the actual stats. Perhaps several charts for 1 character, offenses defenses ect, then you can group things in like 0-100 0-10 ect?

Also many main/0 cd skills have crit damage and adcth built in. Not including them would be a bit misleading imo.