Hi Crate, you responded to a post on facebook, linking this thread as an answer to the comment: “When are you going to bring in the rest of us to what was promised on KS?? That would be news.”
I know we’ve eMailed before with these regards, so after reading this link and thinking about it, I want to say providing steam keys is only a small portion of what you promised on KS. Specifically, access to alpha, beta, etc. Without the use of steam, or steam like services. When I ask about accessing the game as promised, that is what I am refering to. It seems to have been forgotten, and those of us that fall under the same category along with it.
It isn’t just the frustration of waiting to play the game, but also a frustration to not being able to participate in the other aspects of game developement as well. A forgotten and broken promise, without recompense, rewarded with a statement of “steam” for those that had no intension of using that type of service.
I understand it is not an easy thing to create a game, but it has seemed easy to forget those other promises made, especially when told to read threads such as this. I still look forward to playing the game, but I can’t say it’s with the same unmarred enthusiasm initially had.
"The initial alpha release will be distributed through Steam because that proved to be the easiest way to provide an exclusive alpha for backers and put out patches while we are still actively developing the game and fixing issues. Other download options may be rolled out later depending on how long alpha lasts / what we are able to manage. We realize that some people have a hatred of Steam and hope that it will not upset anyone excessively, but it was the fastest and best solution given the complexity of trying to set up our own authentication server due to the numerous different pre-Kickstarter / Kickstarter / post-Kickstarter reward tiers with different levels of access and numbers of keys, partnering with Humble Store to handle all the key distribution and not having given out keys that were uniquely tagged to each reward / game tier.
To be absolutely clear: there will still be a DRM-free, Steam-free final release for those who desire it, as we promised. However, if anyone just has an absolute aversion to Steam and does not want to participate, we will provide you with a full refund. To be fair though, we did say Alpha would be “exclusive” and did not say it would be DRM-free; but we also did not say it would be on Steam, as we had no idea at the time how we would actually release it. Up until recently, we were not even sure if we would be able to have the alpha on Steam for the people who wanted it, but it actually proved to be the easiest option for us when we started looking into it. So I apologize to any die-hard Steam haters. If this party is not for you, just email us at [email protected] with the subject “alpha refund” and we will make it so."
I’m surprised it took you this long to respond to the whole “Alpha/Beta being on Steam” that has been going on for sometime. At least early access was given for everyone and those who only had beta access or final release access didn’t have too long of a wait in order to check out the game.
Imo what was promised for KS will be given out but it’s merely a matter of “when” in which case all of them should be completed either on release or shortly after (like the modding tools).
Using Steam for Alpha and Beta testing means saving a lot of time when it comes to development/expenses.
1a. If you really wish to be fair, then the context in which ‘exclusive’ was initially used would not be removed in order to facilitate the averted direction taken. Exclusive access was for those customers that paid a dollar amount for the KS tier which included access to the Alpha / Beta. It was not exclusive in the sense you are now portraying.
2a. Please do not make statements like this. They seem condescending in nature when there is no body language to distinguish the “It’s like this now, even though we said differently at first, so take it or leave it!” feeling the words themselves give. It is as if you feel you’ve made your money and no longer need the people that initially believed in and supported your game.
3a. It didn’t take me long. As I said in my initial post, we (Crate and I) have eMailed each other when the first announcement was made. I communicated with Aurthur during May2013 regarding the deviation from the KS promises. To quote his eMail response: “I think the biggest failure on our part was probably not being more clear to people who were concerned about DRM, what we meant by “exclusive” or how we intended to facilitate that.” This quote does not take away from how ‘exclusive’ was used on KS, which reserved itself for tier purchases, NOT steam (or steam like service) users.
3b. The reason I replied to the Facebook link now, is because I wanted to really think about my statement on FB, the response given, and this threads original post, while at the same time not interrupting anyone’s holiday spirit with a “You haven’t kept your promise!” statement.
4a. Everyone would have included everyone that purchased a KS tier that included Alpha / Beta access, without limitations or prerequisites, as was stated / shown on KS.
6a. If that is what it boils down to, saving money and having to forgo your initial promises on KS. Then just ‘man up’ and say that is the way it is. Look for another way to make it up to those you’ve broken your agreement with other than telling us: “Take it or leave it now that we have what we want.” Or stating untruths about the use of ‘exclusivity’ when it can be shown exactly what exclusivity meant on KS. For instance, these tiers don’t mention Alpha / Beta access: http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g135/igounfazed/Crate-GrimDawn-KS02_zps0690c85f.jpg -and the word ‘exclusive’ is used for an in-game item : NOT for early access, as the tiers were first made.
This was never promised. They said the final release would be DRm free and that you would have access to alpha and beta.
They never said alpha / beta access would be DRM free (they never said it would require Steam either, there simply was no statement regarding how it could be accessed).
When I ask about accessing the game as promised, that is what I am refering to. It seems to have been forgotten, and those of us that fall under the same category along with it.
You read something into it as promised, that was never actually said. So it was not forgotten, it simply never was promised.
It isn’t just the frustration of waiting to play the game, but also a frustration to not being able to participate in the other aspects of game developement as well. A forgotten and broken promise, without recompense, rewarded with a statement of “steam” for those that had no intension of using that type of service.
If you are so against Steam, you cannot participate in the alpha and beta, as that is the only way into it.
I guess a refund / reduction in price to the standard access tier is your best option then.
This was never promised. They said the final release would be DRM free and that you would have access to alpha and beta.
Those are two separate statements, the DRM free does not apply to both. They never said alpha / beta access would be DRM free (they never said it would require Steam either, there simply was no statement regarding how it could be accessed).
When I ask about accessing the game as promised, that is what I am refering to. It seems to have been forgotten, and those of us that fall under the same category along with it.
You read something into it as promised, that was never actually said. So it was not forgotten, it simply never was promised.
It isn’t just the frustration of waiting to play the game, but also a frustration to not being able to participate in the other aspects of game developement as well. A forgotten and broken promise, without recompense, rewarded with a statement of “steam” for those that had no intension of using that type of service.
If you are so against Steam, you cannot participate in the alpha and beta, as that is the only way into it.
I guess a refund / reduction in price to the standard access tier is your best option then.
that is what was meant by it and also how it was handled.
Alpha / beta access was given out to backers before it appeared as Early Access on Steam for everybody else.
That it now also is on Early Access is due to the fact that Crate completely missed their timeline, so they wanted all backers (with or without alpha or beta access) to have access to the game in its current form, so backers can play the game somewhat close to the timeline that was planned on KS, even if the game is not finished because the timeline was missed.
Once everyone that backed it had access, there is no reason to not sell it to other people as well. Since it is not yet the final game, that in turn is Early Access.
4a. Everyone would have included everyone that purchased a KS tier that included Alpha / Beta access, without limitations or prerequisites, as was stated / shown on KS.
it never was stated like that on KS, this is a misunderstanding on your part, just look at the picture you provide
I’ve read nothing “into” it. I read exactly what was provided to all on the KS tiers, even provided screenshots that sustain their promises. Should you wish to understand differently than what the words express, that is fine. However, that is not what I chose to do. Recall I stated Crate personnel already expressed they were wrong in how they offered their KS to how they have implemented it, to me via eMail. If an employee to Crate can understand, and acknowledge the same understanding, I can assure you no reading ‘into’ what they had in KS is occurring. I don’t see how you can surmise differently.
Thank you jiaco for pointing that out. Also, you’ve brought to light I mistook DeMasked’s response as one, and I send apologies to DeMasked. Though the response should be considered by a Dev, as well as my first post.
Since you stated that you have been in communication with Crate Entertainment regarding this issue via email I would suggest you continue to do so.
Bumping this thread with an issue that was addressed quite awhile ago doesn’t quite make sense to me since you also had a previous post relating to the issue when the Alpha was first released where the devs have given answers to the complaints several times.
Plans can change and the devs have apologized for it - this is Crate’s first game so obviously not everything is going to be perfect. Beating a dead horse close to a year later and expecting things to be different is indeed… interesting.
Otherwise I understand your mistake, links and quotation marks can be easy to glance over and miss.
Your provided screenshot does not support your interpretation of what is meant by it…
that is the very definition of reading something into it
Recall I stated Crate personnel already expressed they were wrong in how they offered their KS to how they have implemented it, to me via eMail.
Maybe you also interpret a bit much into that… yes they said something along the lines of ‘we wish we could offer a DRM free alpha, but Steam was just a much easier choice, sorry if you do not like Steam’ in a post here a long time ago (no idea what they wrote in your email obviously).
That is no acknowledgement that the alpha should have been DRM free and they broke that promise, because it simply never was promised.
He can be upset about there not being a Steam-free alpha.
He can not be upset about that being promised but not delivered, as it simply never was promised. As the saying goes, you are entitled to your own opinion, but not to your own facts.
Also, as he wrote, he was in contact with Crate before he even posted, so the point of the post cannot have been to establish such contact. Instead it was to rant about a perceived broken promise - but when you do that, you better make sure the only thing that is broken is not your understanding of simple english sentences…
I would say the mistake is on his part for not seeking clarification before jumping on the boat. But, lets just let him rant away. Lets both parties deviate and move along.
To OP, i think Crate has done his best to be honest and the parts on the steam issues i honestly think he doesnt foresee and already apologize to frustrated fan (even though some could say its not his fault, and i do agree). In my opinion, Crate is one of the honest dev and just want to deliver the game, albeit the prblem with using steam.
I understand your frustration but being a calm and composed guy (as i hv seen in ur posts), lets just be big hearted and be positive. And forgive them if u think they lied to u. Mistake done,apologized and release is on the way. U sir have a nice day
We can honestly say we did our best to make everything as fair as possible for all our Kickstarter backers given the changing circumstances that can and will occur as part of game development.
As far as I’m aware there was no specific promise made in regards to DRM beyond a DRM free final release. Perhaps certain wording on the Kickstarter rewards could have been more clear, but as we have said before, Kickstarter has limits on editing rewards that people are already backing, and had we known at the time the best route to alpha was via Steam then we would have certainly made every attempt possible to let people know.
Going back and forth on this any more is pointless, so I’m closing this thread.
