I don’t believe I made such a suggestion, nor did you in your first post, so I’m not sure I see the fuss.
If you are using a build that either is a caster that has large amounts of WD% in its skill main or an auto attack build the heath regen needs to be in the thousands to match the heal per sec that ghoul provides even for lower damage builds.
yes but that is only at low life and for 6 seconds on a 30 second cooldown.
While Health Regen builds can also take Ghoul and will also have 1500+ life regen at all times and over 2500+ life regen around 25% of the time with Giant’s Blood. And they can achieve this with little effort on some class combinations
Thanks for your contribution. I realise I overlooked important aspects of itemisation that might need re-balancing if behemoth was buffed to the degree I first posited. Components, augments and item affix can come with quite large values that boost health regen +%. Debatable whether this is a problem since stacking these stats come at the cost of damage/other useful stats and acquiring those specific affix can be a pain itself.
That being said not all caster build have the luxury of being able to use troll wart powder on weapons, using corpse dust instead of bloodied crystal, using MI rings with of dranghoul affix, using armor augments with health regen% instead of more res, taking and maxing health regen skills. At the end of the day your build will be far behind to the damage of Spank’s or John Smith’s Stun Jacks Purifiers. These builds already have to use 4 buffs and a banner in gladiator crucible to achieve their 8-9 minute times. They are are respectable times but investing into health regen to the degree you have pushes the build quite far back and is costly on damage. Builds with life steal on the other hand do not need to go so out of their way to gain sustain and that is the ultimate purpose that the thread seeks to address.
Edit: You also have low slow res compared to the others. This is a pretty important stat.
Yes, you didn’t specifically but others did offer up the AS as a stat to be hit first on ghoul. A buff to Kraken to make up for a loss (if any) would be welcome to me, I think 2H do have quite a hard time on the AS front and ghoul being useful on that front for 2H does show some of the weakness.
LoL and not all caster’s can stack life leech and use skills with High %weapon damage. These are both different options which is exactly what people were asking for in this thread. Is life leech better then regen sure, but regen is no where near as bad as people make it out.
And it only took me 10 hours to farm that ring which isn’t that bad really other then it being boring running to gollus and logging out all the time for 10 straight hours 
Hell sword and board witchblades can easily have 4k Life regen while Giant’s Blood is active
This is a highly subjective value judgement. From the way people have posted thus far I would say that most people accept health regen as requiring a lot more investment (and restricts more gear options) relative to life steal such that it is annoyingly too far behind.
It would be interesting to see if your build can clear 151-170 gladiator crucible and if so what time it could achieve. I suspect it is a lot slower, at least more than 10 minutes (you have not even gone purifier which is optimal for the Light Defender set). Even that might be generous, but even if it were true a 25% slower crucible time is a lot (imo). How much slower would it need to be for you to agree it was far behind?
I can’t personally but thats true on all builds including exact copy of builds people say clear in sub 6 minutes. Just not a good enough crucible player. Usually die on 160 or 161. Tho I have no issue running 131/150 on hardcore
It wont be behind because of life regen, it will be behind because no tricked out storm box and no retarded instant -rr (as clicking Curse of Fraility all the time will slow me down compared to do nothing at all Aura of Censure)
Life steal or no life steal certain class combos out perform others. But why should this stop me from playing other class combos?
DON’T TOUCH GHOUL
This “lifesteal meta” is only a product of how easy crucible is (relative to previous iterations). Nerfing ghoul (and lifesteal in general) will just hurt AA builds for deep realms. If I turn out wrong and glasscannon AA builds compete with the superdefensive builds for the deepest realm records then feel free to complain. Now is not yet the time for discussing whether ghoul is OP.
If you guys nerf ghoul, I swear to God… Xjsbdnzjsndjdjxn
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Ignoring all the rare gear you used that most normal users will never see, the problems with this is that they only builds I see reaching such high numbers(without even more sacrifices) are those that have health regen from both masteries. Which would be Blademasters, Witchblades, Commando, DW Witch Hunters, DW saboteurs and Pryomancers.
That is builds that either are already more defensive or have access to good life steal are those that have good access to health regen. The Pryomancer would be the only exception.
hate to break it to you but most people wont have the purples i have either. So sick of this green bashing. All 3 m.i.s are rare/magic combo’s and they are super flippin easy to farm (just takes time invested as all 3 bosses are easy to get to and kill). As for the boot’s they can be regular crafted boots if they don’t have the resources to craft the yellow recipe boot.
Somehow everyone ignores what elite builders with thousands of hours of playing experience have to say. And not just playing, but testing out all possible gear/skill/devotions combination to figure out what works and what does not.
I will just repeat it, do not touch Ghoul. You are going to hurt A LOT of weaker builds. Buff weak/useless devotions first, see if they work first, buff 2h-melee meta, then and only then it’s worth looking into Ghoul.
1 meta for crucible and a different meta for SR sounds good though?
Also something that’s worth appreciating is that when you delete crutches and those builds “die” or at least suffer, the problem becomes more clear on how to make a better solution. Sometimes you have to endure a patch that hurts your builds so you can bring up precisely which ones are suffering the most and then get changes that tune it back up in a better way.
Even without touching ghoul I’m still anticipating a different meta for cruci and realms. Cruci will stay as it is currently, while realms will still not have those lifestealing glass cannons on its deepest parts.
What I predict the realms meta in terms of how deep you can go will be is like this:
Tier 1: the deepest runners
-tanky soldier/oathkeeper mofos with or without retal i.e. Octavius, Stoneguard, possibly Sentinel/Perdition Sentinel.
-defensive binders i.e. Krieg w/eternity and TD or similar.
-probably the best dot casters that can kite while still dealing a lot of damage
Tier 2: sr farmers but just can’t run too deep
-this is where the glassy lifesteal builds come in. When i comes to farming middle waves, pretty sure these will be better than the ones above
-offensive binders
-basically every cruci build you see nowadays.
Tier 3 and below are janky builds you make for fun.
Now if we nerf ghoul now then the gap between tier 1 and 2 will just widen, and might even hurt the farming prowess of the tier 2 builds. I don’t think it’s good to nerf these kinds of things right before the arrival of a big expansion. We need more time.
When looking at Ghoul don´t forget the investment: 5 Points for only 3.
Haven´t found another T1 constellation with these numbers this morning. To get Ghoulish Hunger only when you finish constellation (as 5th node) would be okay for me.
I actually agree with you to a large extent but would still see ghoul just tuned down a bit and then we find another way to tune up the list of builds hurt by the nerf. We can agree to disagree about this I suppose but while it doesn’t make any build OP I do think it’s non ideal for a T1 to be the crutch for builds. That smells like a deeper issue to me.
I’m fine with ghoul’s attack speed. In fact I doubt I’ll even get the nerf I personally want. I really dislike the large amounts of phys resist on it. Some is fine but 18%?
Really what I’d like to do is reduce that and then find ways to give that physical resist back to the hurt builds in more consistent places.
+1 to x1x2 breakdown.
I would add that the builds that he calls “Glass Cannons” are actually very solid build defensive-wise. It’s just they can’t stack defenses the way Warlords or Tacticians can, so have just enough defenses and rely on faster kill timers to survive.
That’s a lot of very strong and sturdy Blademasters, melee Infiltrators, maybe some Tricksters and some non-shielded Tacticians as well as some ranged Vindicators.
There is another tier of weaker melee builds like Reapers/Spellbreakers/ranged Pyromancers/Purifers/Druids and plethora of non-Inquisitor casters that just physically can’t stack armor/phys res/weapon damage with ADCtH that are going to be hurt the most.
But most of all, it’s just a faulty logic to nerf something that works just to expose why weaker classes are weak.
Buff bad stuff first and see how it goes, it’s just stupid to nerf something because it works the way it supposed to work.
For me it´s all about alternatives. Buff things like Dryad, Behemoth, etc. or compensate the loss in other places…but just nerfing would be…meh.
I don´t think it would be easy to help all hurt builds after a nerf…
Edit:
More thoughts after 1 coffee:
A nerf will hit all the builds with low HP. I recently took Ghoul in my build and it only proccs if the shit hit the fans (aka “I play stupid”) because of my 18k HP. It´s an “Oh shit!”-mechanic (not even a button) especially for low HP-builds. I don´t know any build which actually is “planning” with Ghoulish Hunger which such a long CD.
Please do not touch ghoul
I’m not sure I like what I’m reading. Who was it to jump out with the idea to nerf Ghoul?
Instead of exciting meta, if unbalanced, where piloting skills would allow for sacrificing a lot of defense for crazy damage if a player chooses so and feels strong enough to pull it off, we’ll have a boring 3-set (as pointed out by 1x) meta where Ravager Eye’s on every weapon, and the only way not to die is to be unable to die and even my grandma can play SR with immortal 5000 armor S&B warlords.
I know it’s an exaggerated nerfrant but, really, it’s gone far enough. I’m chaining myself to Ghoul. Nerfing Ghoul is nerfing my soul.
NO! :furious:
