LOL, these cry about ghoul. This is a gamebreacking conselation, it turn every high-dps character filled with WD intro a leechtank. Nerf it to hell :furious:
What is so fun about everyone picking it?
It´s all about perspective. Why do so many builds choose Ghoul? Because of lack of viable alternatives.
Take a look at “Wayward Soul”: With “on hit” and long cooldown the healing is nearly useless because it proccs at the 1st seconds of a fight…when you haven´t lost really few HP.
The heal would be useful if it
a) would be permanent like Dryad (on attack, no real cooldown) or
b) make it like Resilience with proccing at e. g. 66 %.
I don´t like Ghoul (as I said). But I don´t want it nerfed to the ground but leave it (more or less) as it is now and other “Survival/Defensive” constellations (with Proccs) be buffed.
Without viable alternatives those builds will be hurt. Then those players will complain and hopefully reveal which builds actually got ruined. Then they will be given viable alternatives. Seems good.
You don’t have to do it in 2 steps imo.
The “flaws” of other Healing Constellations are mentioned: Giant’s Blood, Dryad, Wayward Soul. And we haven’t even talked about the other good defensive nodes of Ghoul, which other Healing Constellations don’t have.
How about listening to people who made dozens and dozens top builds combined first? We can tell you which builds will be hurt. It’s not really hard to guess. X1X2 mentioned those builds. I mentioned those builds.
This whole situation when Zantai decides to listen to people who farm Cronley with a Tactician in full Markovian set instead of listening to builders who know hundreds of possible skill/devotion/gear combinations inside out really pisses me off.
You seem to dislike melee
Almost ALL melee builds. The amount of balancing an tuning that would have to be done so that all melee builds would equally get what ghoul offers but more spread out on gear or devotions (without creating other imbalance) is stupid to even think of this far in the game. It’s and innate problem that melee has due to how enemy phys damage scales and how ineffective lifesteal can become, making you stack even more. I’m not even talking crap like fumble here. Ghoul (stat wise too powerful for a T1) was a patchwork for a deeper problem that would take a long time to be fixed and problems would always exist with certain builds. If it ain’t broke don’t fix it. The knowledgeable attitude in this case is exasperating. As if melee didn’t already have problems in the toughest areas. This shit is annoying really
Thanks, man, +1 to every word.
And that’s just melee. Repeating for a millionth time: all weaker casters are gonna be hurt by that as well.
If Z. nerfs Ghoul, he will just open a huge can of worms which is game’s innate imbalance.
I agree, even people (like me) who think that ghoul deserves a (small) nerf should:
-
wait for behemoth/tree of life/dryad to be buffed first
-
play SR and see how far you can get relying only on ghoul.
I do like the idea of switching over some of the attack speed fr ghoul to kraken though. 2h have no need for nerfs for sure. A ghoul nerf would hit low %weapon damage casters the most, if you decide to nerf its %lifesteal and/or the phys res. They don’t care about the attack speed though. Also don’t you think that a devotion like ghoul is not supposed to be a mage’s best circuit breaker in the first place? A healing/regen circuit breaker would fit much better instead of a lifesteal devotion/proc. That’s why imo dryad need her numbers buffed and the behemoth and/or tree of life procs need their healing to be when you are brought low (40-50% HP) instead of on hit (with high CD). Also their healing numbers were fine for vanilla, but are just too weak for AoM/FG era.
Would say, as “thin non-wd caster” builds player.
For big amount of builds is absolutly impossible to play without ghoul. Casters with high cdr could use it ±often, and everything is needed: 6sec duration, 18% phys. res., amasing LL.
It seems like non-wd casters will suck in SR even with current ghoul, not to mention nerfed one.
I’m kinda late for the ghoul talk, but here is what I’d do:
Choose one:
- Reduce the duration to 2 seconds (85% ADCtH can get you back to 100% HP in only 1 second). Cooldown reduced to 20 seconds.
- Remove physical resistance and increase the life leech to 100%.
- Lower the ADCtH to 35 - 50%.
- Lower the ADCtH to 20%, increase attack speed to 55%.
1.Bye Bye, ghoul. now another placeholder in Red devotions.
2.Sound reasonable.
3.Sound reasonable
4.Bye Bye, ghoul.
I love melee. The majority of my characters are melee. I again find these kind of assumptions about what you presume I feel or what I’m biased toward to be rude. I’ve been most enjoying my melee characters in FG actually. I would really love if you disagreed with me without saying what you think I like or feel toward anything. But apparently my vouching for changes with a long term idea in mind that you wouldn’t like means I’m excluded from these social courtesies.
I’d be happy to post-pone ghoul nerf until melee gets other kinds of support, and those casters get other kinds of support. I like some of the stuff I see listed in the thread. But yeah sustain’s an issue, phys resist is an issue… seems fixable actually.
“problems would always exist with certain builds.” This is the literal core of our disagreement. Z is bright. The community is bright. These problems can be largely addressed, of this I am confident. It might take some time, but it to me would be better than letting ghoul remain a crutch for so many builds. It’s not like I want to nerf it into oblivion. I’d just like to take some things off it and put them in more consistent places for the builds that need them. Yes, this is a vague concept that needs fleshing out.
I’m just happy people are admitting it’s a huge crutch for these builds and over-tuned for T1 as a patchwork solution. This is all good communication to me. Sincerely man, it’s just good to get this conversation going.
People are a little intolerant of any other view of how the meta should be. I don’t even think every class combo should be able to get through the crucible in a reasonable amount of time, if it meant crucible could be more challenging again. Accessibility often comes at the cost of difficulty. Period.
I also personally would like see GD kill times slowed down some, but also make sure less builds are burst damaged into oblivion. Especially with the addition of mobility glyphes/runes. Lots of people disagree with this view. That’s fine, but it doesn’t mean either party is correct or incorrect.
Some people like winning more. Some people like being challenged more. Everything inbetween too. (I am not saying this to applies to anyone here, just a broad thought)
2 handers need help too. Whether you get rid of the crutches before implementing the help elsewhere, or whether you implement the help first and then tone down the crutches… makes no difference to me.
God forbid I think there are pro’s and con’s to both approaches.
That would be more ideal yes, yes, if it was done all in one step. My point was more that sometimes a change that hurts a bunch of builds unites the community’s voice into finally getting enough feedback to fix the real issue. Luckily the controversy of nerfing ghoul has already started this process. Though I’m not sure it is all devotion. I have talked with fluff elsewhere and some more phys resist options on affixes might be nice. And I’ve personally wondered if caster armor and light armor is a bit too low compared to heavy armor, given how dang prevalent enemy phys dmg is. Maybe Temper should have gotten phys resist instead of DA. etc. etc. Lots of options.
I understand you’ve pointed them out, but this is where it’d be fantastic if you had some ideas for helping them not NEED ghoul. You realize I’ve played crucible on a lot of the same builds you guys enjoy, and I still advocated for this right? We just have a different process in mind to achieve the same end result.
The funny thing is that privately I had said almost verbatim what you just wrote. That perhaps it’s a can of worms best left unopened. Still until we brainstorm how to implement nuanced and specific ways to increment away from ghoul reliance, we won’t know if the can of worms being opened might be worth doing for some cooler results later.
I would take option 3.
This is why imo non WD casters need another option beside ghoul/instead of ghoul. Changing behemoth to a circuit breaker would make it a valid option for those builds.
Wonder how would it die this way when you literally don’t need the life leech for longer than healing your whole HP. Wonder how many people need it after 2 - 3 seconds of activation. I personally very often use it to just hit twice and run away, because the ADCtH vs. bosses (rather nemesis monsters) doesn’t help as much as they deal too much damage compared to how much you heal.
I don’t think 2 seconds duration would change much. If you take crucial damage, which lowers you to below 40% HP, you won’t take it again for at least 5 seconds, so if you have this buff for 2 seconds, you still can heal up and chill.
In case of: “You can’t kill Ravager in 2 seconds”, “you can’t survive Ravager when it has 2 seconds duration”, Ghoulish Hunger is nor permanent and the value of life leech is reduced by 90%, and there’s no way in hell this will help you in a Ravager kill. This skill has 30 seconds cooldown and if he shred you to low HP, he’ll do that again during the time the skill is recharging.
If you think otherwise, at least provide some actual examples when and how would it kill this devotion. If you say “crucible blah, blah, blah”, I’ve already explained it little earlier in this post.
I’m in full agreement with rhylthar. As it is right now, I’m happy with ghoul (still think reduced affinity yield is an acceptable nerf).
However, the only reason why Ghoul is king is because other defensive T1 are crap compared to it.
I like ghoul and I do not feel it is OP.
Please no nerf, try instead to make the other defensive T1 devos a bit more useful.
It’s a T1 devotion with values of a T2.5 devotion. What… Ignore the proc chance of Abominable Might, compare it to Ghoulish Hunger. Looks pretty much the same. The only difference is the duration and restriction (AM is for chaos build, GH is for any build). Heck, even compare it to Meteor Shower or Ultos’ Hand, it’s pretty much a T2.5 devotion and would be easily T3 if we had lower cooldown/longer duration on it.
What exactly is the purpose of such nerfs?
Balance? That argument is laughable. It’s been proved by players more experienced than me (including some of the Preatorians): this will not create any balance. This will make the strongest builds unable to perform as they do, medium builds to perform at the highest level of content and weaker builds to perform at all. It will make everyone wear Restless Remains and Seals of Blades/Haunted Steels on everything - killing diversity where it still exists. Just because all other means of sustain don’t work for high level content, to nerf the only thing that does? This philosophy is just thin…
Making the game more challenging? This is an aRPG and not an arcade platformer. That’s not where you should focus when working to increase difficulty in aRPG. You do it, among other things, by making the game mechanics complicated enough and consistent so that it’s impossible to succeed without knowledge and experience.
Aesthetics? Because a T1 devotions cannot have T2/T3 worthy stats? This is nonsense.
Anyways, the thread was supposed to be about discussing ways to improve builds with no or little access to weapon damage - the alternatives. And of course some trigger happy… someone had to jump out: NERF ADCTH! Jeez…
So, according to you, it doesn’t matter if Hungering Void requires 6 points or 45, just let’s put everything for free and don’t care about balance. Let’s add more items like Malakor’s Infusion, but instead of 15% RR (which was reduced to 8 now) let’s make it 115% RR. Balance doesn’t matter in ARPGs, it’s an ARPG, everything must be broken as fuck. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Do you even know what you’re talking about? If an ARPG is not balanced, people will not play it. Heck, this applies to all games, builders, shooters, even Tetris. I am sick of picking all the same constellations for every build, GH is in almost all my builds because it’s retardingly strong, everyone picks it and you’re implying balance doesn’t matter. Just please, don’t talk if you don’t even know what you’re saying.