13.31regen per second. Lets increase numbers 10 fold
100 base regen *10 %healing effect * 10 %extra regen
10000 regen per second.
Now with double-dipping.
1000 * 10 * 10 *10
100000 regen per second.
See, you don`t want to mess with extra multipliers, as things get loose pretty fast. Just check Maldacarred Kobra - just 90% extra WD multiplier on single WPS and tadam, 2mil crits .
my point is you can get 4k regen now and still kill things at a reasonable rate. Regen is no where near as bad as people are making it out to be. They just want everything to be OP so it can carry them.
Searching “Healing effects” on grimtools item database returns 9 results. All those 9 items have small % value of 5-10%, most item are ring of which 2 could be worn. Rest of the stat must be from devotions and mastery skills.
Devotion seem to also have low value of 3-6%. Oathkeeper has largest healing effect +% from resilience and Presence of virtue.
If you got 3k regen then stacking healing effects to boost that further could see it go to 5k+ with all the items, devotion and maxed OK skills.
This all requires quite large investment that will come at the expense of damage and other stats. I’m not sure it be anymore OP than making an equally sturdy tank by other means that already exist.
Yeah, you can stack 4k regen now on some builds with free slots for health regen items and health regen from devotions… and still be lightyears behind ADCTH build that regen entire lifepool with every hit. :rolleyes:
So fist ADCTH need a balance patch. We need to put at least some restriction on this mechanic.
Let’s not exaggerate. The number of builds that adcth to full health with every hit is as small as those that can stack 4k health regen. Or smaller. (I’m not talking about Ghoul duration; and inadequate builds usually die the second it ends).
And what about all the builds that survive on scraps of adcth (aether PRM, non-Stormreaver totems, all Chillspikes/Stormfire/Biting Blades, that new Allagast by John_Smith, some auramancers, etc.)? What are they supposed to do? Drop all their devotions and go for Dryad and Tree of Life? That would be just great for balance, wouldn’t it? :rolleyes:
If I’m not seeing something, please enlighten me. I just don’t get it how come instead of buffing alternatives we’re discussing nerfing adcth…
I am totally against nerfing AdctH.You can survive even without single skill or proc with WD.Tss Druid for example,you don’t need life steal at all.Casters,retaliation builds and tanks with high absorb also are fine without it.If you just diminished life steal effect it will make surviving for squishy class combos even more difficult.
There are some solutions to reduce ADCTH power without reducing numbers directly.
For example, we could look at old PoE’s “life leech” mechanics, where HP restoration per second via “life leech” is limited (20% of max HP nominally). With that, having an abundance of “life leech” with low HP pool wont let you survive too well - since you’ll be hitting the cap anyways.
The thing that annoys me with ADCtH, aka “life leech”, is how everyone and their mom can use it. It makes sense to drain the life with vitality attacks, vitality based weapons and skills and some darker masteries such as Necromancer but currently there’s ADCtH everywhere : weapons (even those without vitality damage), components, devotions.
Necromancer has spells that literally drain the life essence from foes. It makes perfect sense to have ADCtH on those spells but what makes those spells special when i can just as efficiently drain life while dropping lightning on their heads (if not more).
This makes vitality just “another fire damage” for me which i find sad. What’s the point of having 10 damage types if they are all basically the same with different names and gfx? It looks like all those damage types were added for the sake of complicating the “resistance puzzle” rather than adding to the depth of the gameplay. I always tend to compare to Sacred 2 where there were only a handful of damage types but each one had it’s unique mechanics. ADCtH was a perfect unique mechanic for Vitality damage, but right now it’s all over the board.
As such i would rather have ADCtH stay strong but be harder to acquire, especially outside vitality builds and requiring some real investment and opportunity cost than have it nerfed. Obviously, such change is way too radical to be implemented now but i sure hope they consider that when/if they finally get to work on GD2.
I fear more a repetition of the DA meta problem where you chunk a significant playstyle while ignoring the inherent issues all the other playstyles have. Big damage and ADCTH builds could have easily functioned in the DA meta, but everyone was ignoring them in order to post the umpteenth 4,000 DA build with 5 Stalwart green items to the point where people would reply to builds posts just to complain about the DA meta. I bet Ghoul would have been changed much faster if people replied to build posts with nothing more than “Oh great, another Ghoul + ADCTH build, junk like this is ruining the metagame.”
After the DA cap patch, how many builds have you seen that have more than the standard DA? On that note, how about high OA builds as opposed to the Ptiro special Inquisitor with 2.1k OA before Deadly Aim (not a knock against you, Ptiro, it’s that you’re right about OA having no real returns)? We keep circling around fiddling around with strategies that actually work until all of them because muddling messes of mediocrity with no real distinction between them.
A second reason why Ghoul is so popular is that the Red-Blue sphere completely overwhelms any other sector. You have Ghoul, Jackal (yay 6% Total Speed) and Bat (even more ADCTH, yay) and you already have 8 Chaos where you can either go for Dying God (35% Crit damage, much more than you find elsewhere) + Time Dilation. You can even go for 5 nodes of Revenant. Combine Ghoul, Jackal, Bat, Dying God and first 5 nodes of Revenant and you that’s 13% ADCTH (before Ghoul proc), 21% Attack Speed under Dying God and great Crit damage, and that’s before the massive OA boost Dying God gives and the great defenses you get with the Blue nodes (Eel, Solemn Watcher, Sailor’s Gude, etc). Where else do you get those massively good stats in one devotion layout that can be used by all classes?
I’m all for buffing things like Dryad and Behemoth, but the Chaos dominance in devotions has to be addressed first- I’d love to see the rest of the devotion layout be buffed so you’re not forced to pick that area just to get decent Attack Speed + Crit damage + sustainability.
I was not around for the DA nerf but personally I see it as removing ways to build rather adding ones. Yes DA was to powerful but IMO the nerf went to far in reducing the value of it.
If you reduce the value of ADCTH as survival mechanism as much a DA was what exactly do you have left? How would reaper or saboteur melee builds even survive? Just removing way to survive and magicaly hope everything will turnout alright seems rather foolish to me. The only thing that this will result in that it reduce the amount of viable builds for high level play.
Edit: There is also the all the nerfs to MoT, maivens sphere, star pact and other form of CDR% from which caster without much WD% have yet to recover from. Which is guess is one of the reason AAR and PRM got a ADCTH mod. If the games keeps reducing the value of all these options eventually you have only have armor, health, damage absorb and resists left over which makes a rather boring and unfair game.
Uhm, Dying God and Time Dilation are mostly primordial devotions and half of the devotions you mention are primodial why just focus on chaos?
There have been suggestions on how the healing devotion could be re-worked and buffed. This is the primary purpose of the thread but the status quo being a comparison was always likely.
Sustain is important in arpg but in GD it has unlimited potential. Given the power creep seen in recent times with more builds achieving high dps and sub 7 minute times, adcth sustain has risen in potential. It is understandable that some people don’t see this side-effect of power creep as a good thing. Again, I don’t think many people would advocate for a nerf to adcth without assisting the lower armor or %defence builds.
I never advocated for the adcth element of ghoul to be nerfed because the low armor and/or %defence/dodge/fumble builds require it. Tankier builds benefit most from the ghoul/adcth situation though (e.g Build like Leviathan don’t need as much sustain but have it anyway). The unbalanced damage mitigation situation is a whole different issue that was examined to a degree in the N&O nerf thread though. Since this is does seem to be sliding off-topic maybe that issue (along with ghoul rebalance) deserves a formal thread of it’s own? I guess it is a little too late by now though :rolleyes:
That could be a good solution as it is only easy way I see to limit the potential of adcth sustain from reaching extreme levels. The life leech cap would need to be reasonable and Ghoul would need a re-work to remove the life leech cap for 6 seconds. I don’t know if this is possible but it would be a lot simpler than trying to ensure builds have similar power levels (and therefore similar leech potential).
Too high DA and CDR were not just “powerful”, they simply broke any sane balance!
Stack 5k+ DA - and you’re literally invincible, no matter how high enemy’s damage is. You’re also invincible to almost all debuffs, CC, etc. Is it interesting to gain invulnerability, stacking a single stat? I dont think so.
I agree, nerf came a bit too far, but it’s better, than let broken mechanics exist.
CDR also broke balance. Certain builds spammed very powerful “emergency buttons” non-stop. Those emergency abilities are designed to be used only in critical situations, leaving you vulnerable for the rest of the CD time. Spamming them must not be allowed.
I think, certain abilities (emergency buttons, primarily) should NOT be affected by CDR at all! Then, developwer could buff CDR, and even allow stacking shitloads of it to spam offensive spells - as long as certain powerful CDs (mostly, defensive) will be unaffected.
Looking back to some of those post I would agree that the DA stacking was way out off hand. Though currently most builds seem to hover around 2900-3100 DA, which is not exactly diverse in itself. It is simply regulated to another resist of which you need to reach a minimum value to be safe, rather boring IMO.
Big difference between 2900-3100 and 3600-4000. With the latter you could just go every DA source and have Stalwart everywhere and you wouldn’t need any damage mitigation, really.
Really, the only difference between builds were the main skill and the damage type. There were no pros and cons to each build, since every build had the same baseline defense.
How is that boring? You can always stack DA to 3600 if you want a lazy safe build or play with 2600 DA if you want some kind of Glass Cannon.
Diversity comes in endless combinations of gear/skills/devotions. I don’t see how having low core stats has anything to do with diversity. Stacking one core stat to cheese the game isn’t diversity either.
Vire’s Might, Light of Empiryon, Tree of Life, and Obelisk are all also mostly primordial devotions. The Chaos / Primordial constellations are far better than the other mainly Primordial constellations, and it’s not even close. Revenant is seen far more than Targo’s Builder, even though Targo’s proc is much better than Raise the Dead. And that doesn’t even get into how much better the nodes for Dying God / Aeon’s are than the other T3 nodes (what other T3 constellation gives things like Aeon’s 3rd node with the massive Slow resistance?)
Meteors / Tainted Eruption are also far better than things like Blind Sage, Leviathan, and Attak Seru, all for the same reason: nearly all Chaos constellations provide something universally useful. Are there any green devotions - outside of Hawk - that made you go “ooh, I’d really want to go for that devotion, no matter the cost?” How about any Purple devotion that isn’t Wolverine (and Shepherd’s Crook if you’re pets)?
If Ghoul’s proc was switched with Wendigo’s, so that Wendigo’s Vitality damage proc was the T1 and you had to invest 6 points to get Ghoul’s amazing proc (and have the affinity bonus be +1 instead of +2), there’d be no way that people would cry out for a nerf. It’s the easy accessibility and additional access to constellations with far better stats that lead to this kerfuffle, but buffing other constellations is a topic for another thread.
