Are Developers happy with Mobility skills?

[tqFan]

Please look at the beginning of my Crucible fight (I’m a bad player so the further the worse it gets and lots of mistakes happen) but just the first two jumps (after beginning of the fight and later the horizontal one to the left). Btw I’ve written in the guide that I went back to Amatok because you don’t make mistakes with it. But these long disengagement jumps are legit.

I don’t see how this rune is bad/not offensive in some scenarios. I feel you can get good with it.
The problem for me was when I was not durable enough to stay in some pools and wanted to make just a short precise jump to engage group of bosses just a few meters further so I switched back to Amatok. But with some skill / appropriate build…

Another thing I don’t like with non-disengagement runes in Crucible is: let’s suppose you want to move dawnwards. It’s little bit weird due to perspective and short distance to the UI bar at the bottom of the screen (you’re afraid that you’ll click UI elements). With disengagement rune you don’t have such problem because you aim upwards and you don’t need to aim far from the character.

Sure, and we also haven’t discussed that Disengage is a very powerful utility for unfinished builds/those of new players. It’s a great tool to help get yourself to safety if you find yourself in a tough spot while you’re learning the game. I think it’s a great thing to offer such stopgap measures for introductory play.

Though I thought Lose Less and Win More were fairly self-explanatory, the reasons you laid out in your post explicitly identify why choosing Disengage is choosing to Lose Less.

But in discussing how the runes compare to one another in an ultra-endgame-farming sense, there is a clear hierarchy among the available choices and Disengage is (in my opinion) not very high on the list. This can be fine - I mean, something has to be at the bottom of a hierarchy, right?

You went so far in being a smart-ass that you forgot you can actually engage enemies with disengagement runes

[Ceno]

You went so far in being a smart-ass

While I don’t discount that I am a smart-ass, I fail to see how any part of those quotes is as such. Those quotes are 100% serious and if you think I’m being sarcastic about them, you’re misreading.

that you forgot you can actually engage enemies with disengagement runes

I didn’t forget it, I just don’t think it’s very practical nor is it how the runes are presently designed, being as the debuff/damage effects originate from a source point and not a landing point.

---

The only time I’ve enjoyed Disengage, mechanically, is when it has meaningful, lasting effects following it.

Zenith update spoilers:

Bloated numbers aside (which are higher than they’ll be at release because it’s easier to see things working that way), I do not like that Disengage is primarily an avenue of escape. I think that lessens the effects of its debuffs, such as OA Reduction or DR or Fumble. What good is a 2-second Fumble, only applied to enemies in melee range, if you then force yourself out of melee range from which enemies can no longer even attempt to Fumble their attacks upon you?

If Disengage does not offer a better means to kill things, as my modded solution does, why take it over anything else? Staying alive is hardly a difficult task in Grim Dawn, once you figure out how for your build. GD’s “meta” is an offensive one, and Disengage does not adhere to that. I watched your video, @tqFan, and I saw nothing from Disengage that another Rune couldn’t do at the same time.

[tqFan]

and I saw nothing from Disengage that another Rune couldn’t do at the same time.

This is the only rune you can travel so far with 2.5s cooldown. It can be very offensive because of it.
Here’s a totally legit way of comparing runes (order on a set of all runes) that I often use and find practical:

Rune1 = [CDR1, Range1] > [CDR2, Range2] = Rune2 IF (CDR1 < CDR2) or (CDR1 = CDR2 and Range1 > Range2] 

In the video you can see a difference between Amatok and Ishtak. It’s huge. Range matters that’s why buffed ranges of Leaps. But they have longer cooldowns. In case of this build I use a gun to kill things not movement skills so in this case this argument goes out of the window.

You want to make a general rule that Disengagement runes are always defensive / inferior / for noobs which I find incorrect. The way I fundamentally laid down these things we can agree to disagree as it’s a matter of opinion/preference/dependent on a build.

[Knife]

There are many players who dont really follow the meta though. Im one of those players, and theres so much more to this debate in my opinion than how effective the rune is at making it easier to kill stuff. It is the manner by which my combat is experienced that makes disengage more appealing 90% of the time. My favorites are the ones that either freeze or petrify, because i love immobilization skills and effects. It makes the distance put between you and the enemy even more relevant as theyre immobilized, which buys you additional time.

Something i love about GD is the combat pace. Its slower than PoE and Diablo 3. You have time to think and can approach fights tactfully, if desired. It should be noted im not talking about Curcible, or SR, just MC. I love the MC of this game, and nowhere is this pace of combat felt more than in MC.

I think to really express my perspective i need to provide some examples of what i enjoy about playing the game more tactically and at a slower pace (one place where disengage runes feel like a “win more” by your definition) so here is one example;

Every now and then, for fun, i like to play on the plains of strife and see how many enemies i can lure into the mines scattered across the battlefield, and furthermore, into the small black legion detachments scattered in the area. Particularly on a difficulty level where my character is far outmatched by the enemies which are present, or using a character that buffs and heals allies. I like to see how many of the enemies i can eliminate primarily using the mines on the field and the black legion NPCs. Its also interesting to see if i can heal the NPCs to keep them from dying while they fight these enemies. I take my time with it. Every mine an enemy detonates is one less mine i have to worry about stepping on, and i work my way around seeing if I can clear a path. The challenge of this playstyle is awesome.

I will go so far as to choose builds with intentional disadvantages built into them, with the goals being to experience the game in this weird kind of way, with areas of the game like this in mind- these are self imposed rules, much like playing HC classless. On many of these builds, disengage just feels thematically more fitting, while simultaneously allowing for a wildly different gameplay approach, and can also reinforce the feel of a character. I have a Stun jacks purifier (Gambit), who uses disengage because thats a Gambity thing to do. I dont picture Gambit leaping into the fray, or dashing across the ground. I certainly dont see Gambit teleporting. Disengage fits him perfectly. I also run a 2H acid Dervish (Oberyn Martell) who uses disengage, but also uses vires might, because both suit this theme.

I do not personally care about a better way to kill things, as you can see. My goal is not to be fast or efficient. Its to explore other ways that are possible to experience this great game- possible because of things like disengage runes, which do something unique. This is more fun to me, and so for my own purposes, on the weird builds i love to play with, disengage runes are often the most appealing.

Im definitely a noob and ill never deny or argue about that, theres a lot i dont know about this game. But im not new, ive put over 2000 hours into it, BECAUSE of things like disengage runes and healer skills. I guess this is the main reason i dont follow the “meta”, and why its difficult for me to see the term “lose less” applying to disengage runes, unless we are specifically talking about endgaming farming meta. Maybe then i guess?

The OP didnt specify thats what he was asking about though, so its important all perspectives are given.

EDIT: I forgot to mention the Blade Trap build that uses a disengage rune. This is my Itachi Uchiha build. An infiltrator, also uses Shadow Strike because both fit the theme. Let me tell you, disengage really just feels awesome on this guy.

[Ceno]

we can agree to disagree

No!

It’s very offensive because of it. In case of this build I use a gun to kill things not movement skills.

Sure but you aren’t killing things while you’re leaping. In fact, most builds - I’d argue - don’t use movement skills to kill things.

Here’s a totally legit way of comparing runes (order on a set of all runes) that I usually use and find practical:

[CDR1, Range1] > [CDR2, Range2] IF (CDR1 < CDR2) or (CDR1 = CDR2 and Range1 > Range2]

At the risk of perhaps inflaming this argument more, albeit with no offense intended, this seems either naive or shortsighted. Pick whichever is less egregious.

Range only matters in a comparison if you’re consistently going the full distance one rune offers over another, which usually is merely 2-3 meters. Likewise, Cooldown (which ought to be CD not CDR, as CDR had me quite confused) only matters if you are consistently using a Rune as soon as it is available. For piano builds, this may be the case, but for autoattackers (such as your own) this would be a tremendous dps loss over time.

Finally, your first video failed to prove to me that Disengage granted you offensive potential that you would have otherwise lacked with a different rune - especially for a ranged build such as your own, and especially in the Crucible where enemies naturally funnel your way. On more than one occasion you hopped away from a new, fresh, unharmed pack of enemies, landing in a different pack of new, fresh, unharmed enemies and began blasting the latter. I’m not arguing that you defensively fled from the former in such situations, just that Disengage’s existence or usage did not contribute anything to the progression of the wave(s).

[tqFan]

Sorry for CDR. It’s not worth it to analyze my gameplay as I lack skill not only is Ishtak’s but also in general. I’m also not willing to improve it to the point of pulling a perfect Crucible run using this rune. I can only imagine it.

just that Disengage’s existence or usage did not contribute anything to the progression of the wave(s).

I think in many builds movement skills damage contribution is negligible / you don’t even hit enemies with it and players could use longer jumps with short recharges. Just watch some runs. They move/walk a lot up and down. We just swapping one negligible contribution to another. If you’re a long-ranged caster (I mean with the ability to kill enemies efficiently at a distance as well) then what contribution would you like from your movement skill?

By the way initially you, let’s be honest, described as a trash skill used for disengaging from battle, “lose less” etc. My intention was to show otherwise not to discuss which is the best. Just use it to move swiftly and on long distances to engage enemies (and move around the map when farming) not to avoid them.

[kukuhimanpr]

Isthak’s Disengagement is the fastest

well, considering how quickly the arkovians succumbed to uroboruuk’s curse, its safe to say that ishtak disengage the fastest from the conflict because of her frail healer build.

lame arkovian jokes aside, i like disengage rune too. it feels perfect in the hand of ranged chars (or melee builds that skates around while hit & running). less amount of cursor movement from the enemy while still having kite ability that also damage/cc/debuff enemies? i’m in!.
torchlight 2 outlander’s rune vault is one of the finest example of disengage skill done right. rune vault can blind enemies affected around the previous spot (blind is the most powerful cc in torchlight), and at high ranks, it can do life & mana steal too! very powerful against mobs! this is a possible example of why disengage rune have great potential for enhancing the fun factor of acrobatic kite builds. sure, it might not be optimal for builds, but it sure is stylish.

[Brian_Tieu]

I also brought this mobility topic up last year but the only responses that I got were people bitched at me and told me to suck it up.

[Conlan]

This is how people behave in internet. About their beloved games, some people who cares the game enough to visit forums often, will defend the games features to death and think the game is too good to be improved.

I’m not talking about anyone in this topic though.

I dont know why i started this thread. Its not like mobility skills gonna get improved at this point. Still wanted to hear from devs.

Compared to similar games; Diablo 3, Wolcen, and Last Epoch ; Grim Dawn has the worst functioning mobility skills. Period. You can’t argue about this. Not everything is subjective when there are obvious facts. Some will hate me for saying this ofc because this is internet.

Low tier Leap skills are joke, almost useless. Casting low tier teleport skills with no Cast Speed bonus is joke; low range, huge windup. Even high tier leap runes are not great because of high lockdown duration after animation ends. Disengage is hard to use and might be practical in some situations, but in Grim Dawn, everywhere is full of obstacles that will block this ability. Most useful ones are high-tier teleports IF you have near 200% cast speed, and more importantly, charge runes (Vires Might style) because of low cooldown and acceptable animation speed (scales with what? i dont know, but even early ones of charge skills feel bad).

Shadow Strike and Blitz style mobility is always good (immediate response), although a bit ridiculous due to unlimited range depending on your camera angle.

Edit: Btw i dont want infinite mobility as in D3 speed runs and PoE endgame. In fact, one of the reasons i did start GD instead of PoE was that the PoE endgame felt like D3 speed farming. Speeding up animations will never make GD a fast teleport simulator.

[Zantai]

Still wanted to hear from devs.

Period. You can’t argue about this. Not everything is subjective when there are obvious facts.

Nah, I think you’ve got this.

[powbam]

Disengage is hard to use and might be practical in some situations, but in Grim Dawn, everywhere is full of obstacles that will block this ability.

Honestly, with a little bit of practice on how to use the skill around a variety of “obstacles” it isn’t quite so hard as you make it out to be. Like most things in life, a little bit of attentiveness and experience performing an action is all you need to get the most out of it.

[Shadowpast]

Damn, late to the party! All jokes aside, having those runes as opposed to not having them, regardless of their manifestation, is a boon. No doubt some are hard to use or have less then optimal animation but would you rather have no runes?

This is not a defense or an argument against the current form of them. I have my issues with them too but if I have to weigh the fact of the game winding down, or what have you, I would rather see the developers time placed into new stuff or balance of existing stuff to make the players’s choice “difficult” as all options would have their merits

The only real change I would like to see, if possible, is to have disengage runes to have spacial awareness and change your trajectory slightly to always go their full distance and not stopped short by obstacles. One could argue to “get gud” and do that yourself and that’s fair I may have to or have started to use those runes more. Alternatively, having a slightly shorter CD time of disengage runes to make up for the skill involved to use their current form would also be a welcomed change.

Also, some of these runes have effects tagged on them that are not easy to get outside of certain masteries or pieces of gear such as fumble. They shouldn’t just be looked at in such one dimensional terms.

Without looking back or at the dev log or anything else, those runes (to me only) feel more like strategic combat utility to move out of the “bad shit” or to apply hard to get debuffs.

[Metto]

Sorry I’m late for the conversation. I’m a very casual player, I don’t care about winning, I don’t care about farming faster. I always prefer charge and rush archetype simply because they feel better. Leap is my least favorite because you come to a dead stop before and after. Not to mention leaping in place if the cursor is on unpassable terrain.

If this is an engine limitation or if it takes too much time/budget to fix it then it’s perfectly understandable. PoE movement feels bad too. So far D3 is the gold standard and judging from the videos D4 is gonna feel even better. Just my 2 iron bits.

[kukuhimanpr]

grim dawn is based on old titan quest engine, though heavily modified.

titan quest (both classic and remastered) had ‘acceleration gimmick’, my own term for tq player char’s movement behaviour being incapable of going to instant max speed when they start moving from idle position. instead, they had to accelerate for under ~0.5 secs, that is, slowly increasing their mov speed into max speed.

this acceleration gimmick is very noticeable when you have to turn your tq char a lot, especially when you play ranged kiting builds. resulting in stutter step animation. melee builds also suffer from this stutter step animation, when they have to switch to nearby targets after meleeing previous enemy to death. you’ll see some cumbersome and awkward animation speed. which is quite a bummer to the flow of combat.

players like the illusion of smooth and fast combat. stutter step animation and acceleration gimmick, while only slows down combat speed in a miniscule amount, can break the illusion of smooth and fast combat for some players.

imo, crate had done pretty decent job in reducing the acceleration gimmick and stutter step animation. however, the slight animation delay that occurs after using certain types of mobility skills (i think leap is the most obvious) brings back the problem mentioned from tq above.

if compared to diablo 3, which have the best flow and speed of combat imo, grim dawn needs a new engine for gd2 to compete with diablo 3 (and PoE, Wolcen, etc).

still, mobility skills in gd are still necessary crutch for late game. either for debuffing enemy, repositioning, or fast dash/tele to different targets. be glad that gd allows people to dash/tele to empty spot. titan quest, even to this day, still had to rely on mods just to be able to dash/tele to empty spot.

[Conlan]

But you cant teleport/dash to enemy spot in Grim Dawn. When you cast a teleport/dash skill behind a big enemy for instance, usually your mouse cursor is still in the “hitbox” of the enemy, causing you to dash/teleport in front of that enemy instead. This is one of the many reasons i wanted devs to reply about their thoughts.

Is if unfixable? Are they simply happy with this? I stated mobiltiy skills are bad in Grim Dawn and i wont argue on that. That doesnt mean i dont want to hear dev opinions. Maybe they are willing to improve them which yould make me happy who knows? Why would i come here in forums with my valuable time, talking about something i want to see improved if i didnt care about the game and have good intentions?

[mamba]

Compared to similar games; Diablo 3, Wolcen, and Last Epoch ; Grim Dawn has the worst functioning mobility skills. Period. You can’t argue about this. Not everything is subjective when there are obvious facts.

so basically ‘everyone disagreeing with me is wrong’, off to a good start…

Would be nice to then get some facts, all I see is personal opinion.

Low tier Leap skills are joke, almost useless. Casting low tier teleport skills with no Cast Speed bonus is joke; low range, huge windup. Even high tier leap runes are not great because of high lockdown duration after animation ends.

I see nothing about ‘worst functioning’ here, unless by that you mean ‘are a bit slower’. That seems to be your main gripe, that skills take a bit of time (compared to D3 or PoE). I’d say GD is in general a bit slower than those, so these skills match that.

Not saying there is no room for improvement, but you certainly make it sound worse than it is.

[Conlan]

Facts are lockdown animations, the way you cant move/teleport over obstacles (pathing stuff, much better in D3 for instance), leap lvl 1 literally doesnt increase your travel speed, teleport lvl 1 low cast speed windup so high, it’s hard to dodge stuff properly unlike in other games i’ve mentioned.

There is nothing personal about this. But you call it however you like, slower, methodical. Call Diablo 3 combat is clunkier than Grim Dawn if you want.

[Evil_Baka]

That seems to be your main gripe, that skills take a bit of time (compared to D3 or PoE). I’d say GD is in general a bit slower than those, so these skills match that.

Not saying there is no room for improvement, but you certainly make it sound worse than it is.

I can agree with this somewhat.

For me, I find that if you play an ARPG that I’ll call A where the combat/overall gameplay is designed to run at a certain pace, then play an ARPG that I’ll call B that plays at a radically faster pace than A and adjust to it after several hundred or so hours of play, you struggle to go back to A. If B is slower than A instead, you may resent B for it because you’re accustomed to A’s pacing whereas B players who haven’t played A will not know.

[mamba]

leap lvl 1 literally doesnt increase your travel speed

it is not meant as a travel speed increase / run

Also you are looking at the lowest tier here, maybe compare anothert tier, not sure D3 has tiers here…

Call Diablo 3 combat is clunkier than Grim Dawn if you want.

I’d say it is more fluid, shows that they have a ton of development years in it / manpower behind it, so I would not necessarily expect that from a small indie studio.

Doesn’t make it a better game in my book though, I got bored by D3 before even finishing it

[mamba]

For me, I find that if you play an ARPG that I’ll call A where the combat/overall gameplay is designed to run at a certain pace, then play an ARPG that I’ll call B that plays at a radically faster pace than A and adjust to it after several hundred or so hours of play, you struggle to go back to A. If B is slower than A instead, you may resent B for it because you’re accustomed to A’s pacing whereas B players who haven’t played A will not know.

I am not disagreeing with that, but then that is about the overall game, not about mobility skills only. To me it makes sense for those to be consistent with the general speed of the game, whether that is overall faster or slower. You are free to prefer the faster paced gameplay.