It helped a lot to be able to get mobility skills through Forgotten Gods. However, Grim Dawn mobility skills are a bit on the clunky side.
Charge skills (target-free) are my most favorite as they seem to be the smoothest. But they have a delay after the charge finishes.
Leap ones are really weird, as i recently tried lowest tier one on a new character after so long, it felt really clunky. After landing, skill locks you for so long, it actually doesnt increase your traveling time (low cast and attack speed, lowest tier rune)
Teleport skills also have a wind up animation, and to me, feels quite bad to use without very high cast speed. They also teleports you instantly (duh) compared to lets say, Diablo and Wolcen, where you almost instantly move to a location and camera also moves with you. Diablo and Wolcen approach is better imo because it gives you a better idea of distance travelled where as in Grim Dawn i feel a bit disoriented with immediate camera location change (hope i did explain this right)
Target based attacks (Shadow Strike etc.) are good. Its a bit silly to be able to travel so much but thats fine.
Disengage skills always feel weird to me so i dont use them and have an idea.
I like Charge based skills, without target as well for both dealing damage and escape trouble.
In early FG virtually every build was using teleport runes though. Then they were nerfed. Still for kiting casters they can be decisive factor for survival.
Shadow strike runes are interesting, but they need more damage to become more appealing. Shadow strike skill for example have the highest damage potential from all the movement skills.
Disengage should enhance the ranged experience. But these runes are really unpredictable at times.
Charge skills are really (too) good, low CD, great range, great speed and adequate proccers. Most builds use them (including mine) for those reasons.
I wouldn’t be against some speeding up of the Leap animations to make them smoother.
Disengage runes are too unreliable to be usable, but I can’t think of any buff/rework that wouldn’t take too much time and work (like making you slide against the numerous walls you get into, for the remaining range of the rune, but it would probably cause some clipping bugs ; or repositioning you where you were n seconds ago), and some people probably use them anyway, they wouldn’t be happy if the mechanic changes.
I can’t speak on behalf of Developers, but i’d argue people need to get away from the classic idea of mobility skill as a fast traverse option, but rather this is meant to be something solely for combat. It’s not your i teleport through the world as fast as possible but moreover a “rather” balanced combat enhancer where you can better position yourself and engage / disengage for fighting.
IMHO and my Experience, i find them pretty good. Outside of combat, so for traversing they’re quite helpfull at times, but they only really shine for combat purpose. And tbh i’m quite happy with that. Not saying i would be childlish butthurt if they would change that, but i actually kinda prefer the way how it is right now, so we don’t have another teleport through the whole map constantly to speedrunning through the campaign and stuff, but a thing which enhances and focus on combat.
The same issues that make some mobility runes bad for mobility also make them bad for combat.
Long wind-ups/-downs are a killer for most non-blitz/ss-archetype runes. This was an odd design choice, imo, since blitz/ss also have the added advantage of theoretically infinite range at the sole cost of needing a target. Which, in combat, is a meaningless limitation.
In DotA 2, my friends and I have adapted a rhetoric for comparing certain items/builds. We identify some options as “Lose Less” choices and others as “Win More” choices. Every Lose Less choice is strictly a worse choice than a Win More one, because one should play to be in a winning position anyways to then capitalize on that situation even further with a Win More build.
Disengage, Leap, and Teleport are Lose Less choices. They are almost 100% of the time an inferior choice to Vire’s Might, Blitz, and Shadow Strike archetypes. To this end, I have literally never used a Disengage rune outside of some mild testing with them. (And some modding…) I used Displacement when it was hip to do so but it’s rather fallen out of favor in pursuit of more aggressive, “Win More” choices. The only times I even consider using a Leap rune is if it has a synergistic damage type and Fumble/DA Reduction on a build that lacks such debuffs. Even then, I know it’s a losing choice.
so, does that mean charge (to target/empty spot) & teleport-attack-to-target runes are the best choices for all builds (including ranged weapons & summoners) at this time to win more? and does aggressive playstyle is viable for all builds for now?
Id argue that “lose less” and “win more” are relative to the player and what theyre trying to do.
I think I may be the only person on this forum that actually likes disengage runes and finds them tactically useful. The fact that it jumps you in a direction opposite of your mouse cursor is honestly super intuitive if youre playing a ranged character- it puts decent distance between you and your targets without the need to swerve all over the screen with your mouse. You can basically keep the enemy in your crosshairs throughout the entire mobilization.
Bonus points if your build needs time to set up mines/traps, disengage works great for leading enemies directly into your mines and traps while simultaneously giving them time to activate making them a little more reliable, if you care abiut what targets your mines and traps are hitting.
As a noob i found disengage Akward at first, but after you play with it for a substantial amount of time, you learn what it can and cant do. Its strength in my opinion is the intuitive distancing between player and enemies without the need to move your cursor at all. No other rune can do that. Its weaknesses I have noted are first and foremost, you cant disengage over obstacles even if those same obstacles can be leaped over. That should be fixed if possible. The only other weakness is when youre new to using the rune, it can be difficult to gauge where its going to send you. After playing with it for a while this is no longer a real issue but if one doesnt have the patience for it, a solution could be an on-screen indicator of where youll land after using the disengage. Maybe a small mod could achieve this, if its not something likely to be seen in a future update.
Please do not get rid of the disengage rune. Its the most unique rune type out of all of them and keeps this game fresh and interesting. Its really fun in casual play and on meme builds. It adds a lot of character to the game.
Its my opinion disengage runes are not a “lose less” option for the above reasons.
Same situation here, I find that disengage rune quite helping when I’m playing totem kiting build, also legendary disengage rune come with 15-18% reduced target damage, quite a good option for class combo that didn’t have that form of defense
Yep, disengage can definitely rock when used in the correct combination and context.
I have a pierce/bleed based Blademaster that does some amazing damage from Shadow Strike and the dual weapons he has equipped. The one weakness with him though is that he cannot hang around in a fight too long face-tanking the target as he was built to be more offensive than defensive. Only 10K heath and weak armor. So his tactic is like a Ninja in that he hits fast with lots of damage and then gets the Hell out of Dodge before his target can respond so as to repeat the strikes again.
This is where the “Glyph of the Elusive Assassin” disengage rune comes into play and enables my guy to repeat these hard hitting attacks without taking too much damage himself as well as leaving the targets a nasty parting gift in the pierce and bleed department.
Goes like this …
Soften targets with spread of Phantasmal Blades and Blade Trap and the procs they generate.
Shadow Strike the targets and deal close quarter damage as long as feasible with Blade Arc and the dual wield weapons also proccing their effects.
When incoming damage becomes an issue, hit Pneumatic Burst followed by the disengage rune and he is now position to recover and repeat the attack cycle again out of harm’s way.
There is definitely a place in the game for disengage runes as well as all the others like teleport etc.
It depends on your build and what you want to achieve with the movement rune?
I also found disengage a little awkward at first until I understood the advantage it can give with a hit and run character. Also the feature whereby you put your cursor BEHIND your character before activating disengage causes him to jump FORWARD almost simulating a leap rune can be quite useful in navigating some areas on the map.
I even have a build that uses Blitz,Vires Might and a leap rune that runs around the battlefield like a cross between the Flash and the Hulk, so leap runes are also a favourite of mine on certain builds.
I have a few casters that equip the teleport runes as I find a caster really needs to just disappear when in trouble and these have some nice magic “Now you see me, now you don’t” for this purpose.
In general, I actually enjoy and use all of the different movement runes on different characters in various ways. Just like deciding on what relic,component or augment you are equipping, movement runes can be a game changing factor for your build if used strategically and intelligently.
I like and use all types of movements skills. I think they’re balanced very well.
Ishtak’s disengagement is actually the fastest way to move around - huge distance with 2.5s skill recharge.
Nothing comes close. I stopped using it though because I didn’t find it 100% reliable but with enough practice… who knows.
It’s definitely very fun too use. Well until you hop in-place because of a pixel and die.
Right, that hopping in place due to a pixel being the biggest weakness of disengage runes in their current state. I know its been discussed before, but I wonder if its possible for the developers to get the disengage mobility skills to be capable of traveling over obstructions/objects that leap runes can travel over.
Though I thought Lose Less and Win More were fairly self-explanatory, the reasons you laid out in your post explicitly identify why choosing Disengage is choosing to Lose Less.
Disengage is a bandaid solution to a build’s inherent mechanical shortcomings. It does not, however, empower a build’s strengths. This is what Losing Less means - it does not mean that it is a Losing choice, rather that you are already in a Losing situation and you make a choice to mitigate the extent of your build’s weaknesses.
But if your build has no weaknesses - as optimized builds will and do - you can choose a Win More option to greatly improve upon a build’s already-impressive performance.
I guess i am moreso arguing that it still is not a lose less, because for its purposes on the builds i use it with, the builds themselves in my mind as i intend to play them, are not in a losing situation to begin with.
An example of this would be a squishy character that uses blade trap and/or AAR. Disengaging and casting blade trap feels GREAT. Will it conquer all the game content? Absolutely not. Blade trap wont really work effectively on most bosses unless built around and geared for specifically. But do i care about that? No. Its fun. To me that doesnt mean im in a losing situation to begin with, just because im playing a meme build. Just look at my Harry the has-been, i run lots of weird builds that use, by your definition, “lose less” gear. But they are not lose less. The term is relative.
You omit the part where i mention this being really fun to use on casual and meme builds.
And I just put it on the record as soon as possible that i dont want it removed on the off chance this discussion goes in that direction, which it felt like it was going to do judging by the negative feedback about the mobility skill prior to my post.
Sure, and we also haven’t discussed that Disengage is a very powerful utility for unfinished builds/those of new players. It’s a great tool to help get yourself to safety if you find yourself in a tough spot while you’re learning the game. I think it’s a great thing to offer such stopgap measures for introductory play.
For “fun” purposes, who am I - some asshole on the internet - to tell you what to use? Do as you like!
But in discussing how the runes compare to one another in an ultra-endgame-farming sense, there is a clear hierarchy among the available choices and Disengage is (in my opinion) not very high on the list. This can be fine - I mean, something has to be at the bottom of a hierarchy, right?
Isthak’s Disengagement is the fastest rune in my opinion. If you’re tanky enough in Crucible / while farming and use it just to move between packs skillfully (not short repositioning evades although I see being possible if you purposely jump into the wall) I don’t see how you won’t achieve better times with it than any other rune. I don’t know what are you losing in this particular situation. When is the last time you used this rune? I think it has very good potential. Jumps seem longer to me than 15m listed (comparing it to Amatok’s 13m).
I will agree that the environment were discussing is definitely 100% relevant to the judgements being passed on these runes. I wasnt looking at it from the perspective of ultra endgame farming. Maybe thats true, i dont know. I dont spend a lot of time doing ultra endgame farming because i dont have a lot of builds that are capable of it, and perhaps this is why lol, because i love using shit like blade trap and disengage runes.
But i do feel like lose less is absolutely relative to the player experience, and in my experience, disengage runes are not lose less.
No I wouldn’t, actually, because I probably still won’t use them out of distaste for the mechanic.
But I haven’t seen successful, consistent usage of Disengagement to this effect.
Well, I mean, even in that new player situation, it absolutely is.
You can Disengage out of danger or to a position in which your mines/etc. can better activate…or you can Charge head-on into a pack and kill things quicker. The safer option is guaranteed to work, but the riskier one - if it succeeds - is going to be faster…pending tqFan’s point.
“Fun” is the only way Disengage isn’t losing less, if you find it more fun than anything else.
Fun, is exactly what I am talking about and why I dont feel disengagement runes are lose less.
I dont enjoy charging into mobs and fighting all the time. I love the variety of having that character who disengages and shit, when i want to play that way, and 9 times out of 10, thats the way i personally enjoy playing. So to me (relative to my own personal experiences) disengagement skills are too fun to be considered a lose less, and enable a more fun style of play that just isnt losing to begin with because of the joy i get from it.
