The poster boy of phys didn’t do so great after the phys buffs. The dmg is not completely awful, but:
This a is pretty heavily tuned into dmg version
The 3xrun has 3 short rooms which is much more than avg, so we are likely looking at a 4:50 build
The survivability is tragic compared to what the build was before. Multiple times i survive by some miracle against a regular pack. Even double checked the build during the run, it felt like i’m missing a piece of gear or smth. 2H melee sustain is just awful in this game.
Once again to reiterate smth i’ve said countless times. 2H melee needs more WPS. WPS are needed for survival of it, not the dmg, because you need stable leech from consistent arc hits.
If this is how the tankiest (after the same set Warder) 2H melee plays, i’m not touching any other 2H build.
Suggestions:
Give the set proc some juice back. Even %absorb won’t be too much because this is just barely playble right now.
Give base Smite bigger arc, maybe scaling with rank. There’s a lot of melee keepers, especially 2H and SnB, that stuggle in SR because this 70 degree arc is some museum number that wasn’t even relevant before the enemy aggro broke, let alone now. I’m suggesting just the arc, not extra targets. I want to hit my enemies.
Give more granted WPS to 2H melee. Even if it takes up a relic slot. Yeah, i know. I’m still gonna plug this into every 2H melee conversation, that’s how it goes.
My Judicator version has less damage and maybe bit more tank and it felt really muddy last time I tried it. Build used to be about bonking hard now it’s about hoping your damage doesn’t get too muddy because you didn’t proc 59% of your stronger wps often enough. I also tried going Oleron devotion on it for better aoe and instantly felt how tank became worse even tho defensively build lost very little.
2H wps as a set bonus would’ve been dope. This weird Upheaval + wps support design is also confusing for anyone who doesn’t know Upheaval/wps mechanics interaction (so basically any casual player).
Yeah, that was my experience too with going Oleron with my previous Bonk boys. I can’t but help feel that T3 devotion needs some love to make it as useful as Vire. Some adcth would help a lot, or add damage reduction to the proc.
After looking at my build roster, I found just 5 2hander builds out of more than 30. And among those 5, there are 2 Whalekeepers, 3-ele Cadence, meme 2h melee fs and Blazerush Upheaval.
While 2h Cadence is ok with wps, it’s pretty sketchy on sustain.
Upheaval builds never have enough OA and Whalekeeper can’t really get 100% wps pool filled with juiced wps (Druid has none, I don’t count Feral here), and Ritualist has 2 but that’s not enough.
And 2h melee FS has none.
Exactly this. Or extra arc/targets to AA if your class has no wps whatsoever.
ngl, after watching that video, i don’t get it - but i’m also a mere mortal/casul pilot, so to me that just looks dope as heck/“immortal and OP”(like other banana runs).
perhaps it would help if Zantai specified acceptable/target run times after the change this PTR to SR souls?
He didn’t outright say what the aim was in other threads, just that SR had become too efficient and couple Lee?KingRed? examples was way too fast for norm.
SR has always been extremely volatile when it comes to timers. Unlike Crucible where it’s easier to pinpoint build’s actual speed after few runs SR has too much variance to say anything for certain. That’s why we talk about how the build feels in SR in certain situations rather than what’s fastest run it can produce. So you either trust what the builders with 5k+ hours are reporting or run those builds yourself against other builds and come to your own conclusions.
not what i’m saying
i’m saying based on the video, i dont’ “see” the build struggling or lacking anything, “it seems normal” to my avg eyes, Banana is successfully tanking half of a chunk map and full bossroom, while barely ever being in danger/dipping on low health like 3-4 instances out of all those huge fights. It looks like “usual” banana exceptional well piloting vid to me.
But even if it looks like other banana vids to me/“immortal and OP”, i’m not saying to disregard the feel or feedback right? - but maybe Zantai can add some qualifiers so people have more to go on instead of constantly fumbling in the dark of what’s acceptable feedback/“how can we legally fix this”
Because if “in Z’s hidden tables” 4.30-5min is acceptable, then it’s a problem/causes a conflict if buffs can’t be added because Banana is already piloting so well it’s deemed in line despite feeling like it needs buffs
If we have more concrete info to go on what’s accepted/not tolerated, it makes direct comparisons easier.
I’m not saying “don’t fix 2handers”, i’m “concerned” it might not if there is an undisclosed metric that says 4.30-5min is within target frame after souls change.
(and then banana should touch other 2handers that can present those issues also affecting avenger that dont’ reach same performance)
and I am saying go off his feedback first and video second. He can make far from the best builds look pretty good. Also I and other top20 builders can corroborate banana’s findings about Avenger.
Again, you shouldn’t go off SR timers, it is not a thing unless you have several people of a similiar skill level make at least 20-30 runs with the same build.
For sure man, me and banana are going to sink tens of hours into researching the issue that we have already known of for quite some time so Zantai can drop a short comment dowplaying and disregarding the whole feedback or so you can nitpick the videos.
i mean, like it or not, “you” guys created this metric as usage over time, hence the (potential) “issue”
literally the very reason i’m mentioning this/raising this as the potential problem
since clearly just going by feel, from top pilots, doesn’t always seem like enough, if/when there is a timer related factor contributing or superseding build feedback or player concerns…
this PTR specially, atleast to me, it seems like there is a lot more “misses”, that i can only really guess stems from unspecified balance criteria, so even fewer suggestions get considered. Hence player fumbling in the dark/“how to fix it legally” mention.
Other 2H builds should be better just by virtue of not oneshotting themselves approximately 2 times per hour. Because as it turns out, reflect is actually a game mechanic in an ARPG.
Call me crazy, but a build routinely doing that can not be considered “poster boy” unless we’re aiming to turn the game into Path of Exile. You can’t realistically compare whole classes and sets to a setup that comes instantly undone outside of a single environment selected “because we don’t like playing anything else”.
if anything that would just be a point in favour of Banana
“this is the best of the best circumstance, doesn’t even have to worry about reflect, yet still doesn’t feel on par with non 2handers/other 2hand phys even worse”
Likewise for non phys, if this is the easiest mode, ie favouring Avenger as much as possible, but Banana still don’t feel like feedbacking other 2handers/2h archetype as a whole, because they are not that much better or feels worse/same as best, it wouldn’t really matter if non phys 2h melees does better in dungeons, if they still dont’ feel great in SR.
(ie you reversed scenario and now have a build that only feels ok in Y specific content instead of X(sr), and only because of the specific gimmick of reflect, not actually the build/archetype)
Incl numbers: phys DK and voldrak Witchb is 7-8min sr30-31 for me (which is not OP but fun to play), last run avenger archon 12min and I let it rot in the void for now.
Physical, in general, feels like it’s in an odd space when compared to everything else.
Typically, getting into any discussion of this nature, I found them to no longer be constructive. A lot of the issues I see or brought up, to me, boil down to build philosophy and acceptable performance. I got almost 6k hours too.
I felt this watching this video and the one regarding 2h Reta with the dreeg 2h’r. By my personal standards, seems “okayish.” Not everyone hovers around the 4 min mark for clears. I think I sit at like 5-5:15ish and find that’s fast. Can only imagine 1 min faster. But I can’t afford to die - at all.
However there is a lot of truth in terms of post. I know this personally because of something I experienced in the D3 mod.
After the avenger changes, even with the Crusader as a secondary mastery allowing for 2h to be wielded one handed, there was still survivability issues with a shield and acceptable sustain (via my standards). And that’s with 3 minimum WPS.
I want to play Targo’s but the state of phys - when a non native acid support mastery combo (tactician) using Radd’s set is outperforming phys with build standards like mine (slow and tanky to survive) clearly there is something amiss.
To be clear, even without clear times in mind, I still feel something just isn’t right and I certainly do not have the combined knowledge those individuals have who made the top20 list.
I dont cherry pick the data i upload, these are the 3 runs i got.
In those 3 runs i’ve almost died more times than with all ranged builds combined that i’ve played (multiple strings of 5 runs). I literally survive by a miracle at times. Do you want me to upload another string of runs where i’m not as lucky and died several times?
The build dips incredibly low in chunks, worst i’ve seen a melee or a ranged build in a while. And this is the “tanky” Avenger we are talking about. And for all the trouble you get a 4:50 build when you can literally roll your face over the keyboard and get a 4:30-40 build.
I’m with Inqui on this. I don’t see anything wrong here. Well, I do, actually, but it’s not the build’s performance. It’s the standard it’s being held to.
Every single instance where the build’s health dipped dangerously low seemed perfectly reasonable. Having half a dozen Rotting Emberguards blow up in your face in melee at the same time will hurt. So will facetanking Kubacabra while there’s a number of heroes, including a Supporter, hanging around (I think it was on damaging ground too). So will routinely ignoring sunders and facetanking a 4 pull. If the argument is supposed to be “there are other builds that are not professing themselves as supertanks that are handling this in melee much safer”, then cool. Nerf every single one of them pls.
The whole point of the introduction of Sunder was to veer away from the endless facetank meta and make gameplay more reactive. And here we have a melee build routinely standing in everything, taking Aleks meteors and multiple Benny crystals on the chin while fighting 3+ bosses, and if its health dips a bit too low, it’s grounds for buffs? Not in my book. Sure, I’ve been mostly away from the game for two years, things have changed. But I don’t want to be coming back to a world where this is a reason to demand buffs. Cause if that’s the case, next up is buffing, what, like 50 % of the builds in the game? I don’t see why we need to be nudging power creep along so badly.
You were behind the meta (no offense) when you were active and now you need a time machine to get up to speed. Well made builds can do a lot, go check out our top20 post, in which even the ~50 builds that didn’t make it could do all the things that you are asking nerfs for.
I think this is one of the biggest factors in Avenger feeling weird to build/play around. Shaman can’t be skipped cause of global conversion it’s only lightning > physical (so no fire for OK side) + being 2h just works naturally better as Shaman (so does health regen, the sustain focus). Therefore you’re virtually always getting your WPS in that weird spot already discussed in the Upheaval thread(s).
For this reason, I think it could be a better option to first address Upheaval/2h WPS as a whole, and then revisit the builds/sets that uses it. Both clearing and sustain are dependant on it, so having one of the most “classic” physical tanky builds showcasing this problem, is a big evidence for it.
- but i’m also a mere mortal/casul pilot, so to me that just looks dope as heck/“immortal and OP”(like other banana runs).
post. I know this personally because of something I experienced in the D3 mod.
is a reason to demand buffs. Cause if that’s the case, next up is buffing, what, like 50 % of the builds in the game? I don’t see why we need to be nudging power creep along so badly.