That’s it! After going here and there, trying every ARPG available, NOTHING compares to grim dawn. nothing at all. Please, please prove me wrong, because I want to play the game that does that! Give me links and all that! I’ll click and start throwing money at it! But seriously…I doubt that it exists, you know why? Because GD is the shit! Steve and Chris, you boys are fucking mad! Thank the fucking gods for avid gamers making games. Because the game industry is really sick and ailed with greed right now. I’m downloading GD as I write this. Played it to death on my PS4 and my PC before that. About to do it again on my new PC! Fucking CLEAN-ass game! Best ever! Love it!
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i hear Diablo Immortal is exceptional value for money 
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I hear that Diablo Immortal is about as funny as a shit in a space suit…when the oxygen seal between the asshole and the mouth somehow broke (not a reference to the current games industry at all!)
Chronicon is a pretty fun little ARPG. Nothing compares to GD in my experience though.
Edit: how did you play GD on PS4?
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Who the hell are Steve and Chris? 
And playing GD on PS4? Are you sure you’re praising the right game? GD has always been PC only until very recently when it was ported to Xbox; it’s not on any other consoles.
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Ah, so that bridge south of Devil’s Crossing leads to Wraeclast, never knew.
Grim Dawm is fantastic. It is easily the SECOND best ARPG I’ve ever played.
But for me, Last Epoch is superior in almost every way, EXCEPT that it currently has not online co-op. This is coming in the next patch at the end of summer. As for my credentials, I have just under 1000 hours in both Grim Dawn and Last Epoch so I am very qualified to compare them both. Last Epoch is the better game for me. Main reasons:
Much more build depth than anything else available. LE has 15 classes and like Grim Dawn, you could build two of the same class and they will play VERY differently. But LE takes this to the next level. Two players could chose to use the SAME SKILL and those skills would play completely differently. This is because Last Epoch offers a full blown (120+ nodes) skill tree for EVERY single skill you chose to use.
LE has the best crafting system ever seen in an ARPG.
LE has an amazing and ever-growing end-game. Completing the campaign is just the beginning of your journey.
Sorry Grim Dawn, you are awesome but LE is better.
First of all:
LE isn´t done yet, so you can´t seriously compare them two games.
Yes, some aspects of LE are great, but there is still a lot to be done to make it awesome.
And LE has no story. Well, it kinda has, there is some lore, but it is so stupid and boring, that I just can´t be bothered.
Playing the campaign in LE even O N CE is a pita, replayability is so fucking bad, I hate leveling alts in LE.
unzips
Blah blah blah … I have just over 7500 hours in GD, so what do I know.
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In my opinion LE is already better than Grim Dawn. That’s why I posted.
But for me it’s all about build depth, itemization (and the crafting that goes hand in hand with it) and end-game. That’s why I personally feel LE is better, as it excels in all these areas even in early access. And as far as those 3 areas goes, you cannot argue that GD is better at any of them than LE.
Personally I don’t care about graphics or campaign/lore/story but people who are more in it for those things would surely prefer GD. No argument from me on that.
Playing any ARPG campaign more than once is a PITA. At least the LE campaign is only half the length of the GD one. In fact I foresee a future where modern ARPGs forgo the boredom of a campaign and get us straight to the end-game mechanics and scalable challenges.
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I got boredom-boils just reading that. Takes the RP right out of the equation. Ugh.
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I’m sure many people can argue with that. The only thing that remotely attracts me to LE is the deterministic crafting. While I like GD’s MI system I feel it’s too rng-dependant. But I haven’t played LE yet so what do I know?
Ha ha. Yes I’m sure you are right.
Imagine if Sigil of Consumption had its own skill tree where there was space for ~120 points (you get 20 to spend only) to customize just about everything you can imagine about how that skill functions. Every single skill in LE has such a tree. The build depth really is mind-boggling. GD’s depth is great but this is next level imo.
And please bear in mind I do love both games and rate them above all the other competition like PoE. But OP asked for a better ARPG than GD and LE is one imo, for the specific reasons I cited. The only one.
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To you, maybe, but i have done well over 100 playthroughs in GD and it took me over 4000 hours to get bored. And i would honestly hate if ARPGs dropped stories altogether since the entire point of a campaign is for the player to learn the ropes. Forgoing it and dropping the player in endgame would be confusing.
Maybe, i don’t know, don’t make it boring?
That… sounds like a pain in the ass to balance and it most likely leads to a bunch of bad builds. Plus, there can too much of a good thing as things can get bloated. Bloat is never a good thing.
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good job! And sad to hear that you no longer play GD.
Actually played it recently to see how Aegis Spam Paladin is after the last update. Plus i’m thinking of doing another playthrough because i still have a bunch of build concepts to try.
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I have to agree. I don’t know first hand the true extent of these 120 nodes but just based on that information, and understanding just how much it takes to balance GD, that sounds like a fucking nightmare for any group of developers to try to balance.
I can only imagine, once you have made more than a few skills in the game, just how easy it is to have options that under or over perform and for such things to be easily missed by the devs… and then having to balance ALL those options in relation to the available content and keep on top of it all?
Something tells me that the LE devs don’t even have enough money to hire a team that can manage that many skills and balance them. Last I checked they haven’t sold many copies yet, not enough to sustain a large team at any rate.
–
Last Epoch sells for 35 bucks USD.
At the low end: 200K copies equals 7 million USD, minus Steams 30% cut equals 4,900,000 million USD
At the high end: 500K copies equals 17,500,000, minus Steams 30% cut equals 12,250,000 USD
Of course, there is also taxes which I didn’t factor in and then you also have regional pricing, sales etc. That gets us in the ballpark of their finances as a company (tho as noted their actual take home will be a good chunk lower than the numbers I listed due to the extra conditions I mentioned). The bigger the team, the faster that money disappears every year (to pay all those salaries) if they can’t keep selling enough copies to keep them in the green. The last time I checked on their Steam Spy stats it was also still in the 200k to 500k owners range… and that was about a year or so ago.
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i’m actually curious about this one, balancing aside
just to make sure i get this right, LE has X skill, with 120 points worth of modifier nodes, but you only get to spend 20?
and each skill is like that?
and i’m assuming you don’t get a billion skill points either? (aside from the already 20 per skill “lock” limit)
which to me sounds sorta worse than one of the flaws in GD; too much to do, but you don’t get to actually do much
GD then sorta alleviates this by placing some key modifiers on items, tho ofc some of them are in essence just the same (conversion mods)
like, if you’re gonna give me 120points worth of modifiers “for exciting variation”, why am i also now getting arbitrarily prevented from making potential changes i actually wanted?
doesn’t really sound as much as “freedom” as it does sound like roping you in to a false buffet dinner
so kinda like GD skill tree, just more bloated, but at the same time with more limitations; you don’t actually get to max anything or make a specific combo you actually want
*this it not me saying it’s “bad” or worse than GD, just that when i think/hear about it, it doesn’t sound as exciting as maybe intended.
the christmas present version of a giftcard, ok it’s kinda like cash, but you still can’t really buy what you want, you can just get anything from these 3 specific stores - i’d rather just have had the cash 
**i also get that potentially limiting the points available to 20/120 could be as a form of balance, balancing the system already makes tough for the devs, but it also has the other effect of hindering build availability/freedom, giving you a false sense of build variety by making more available than you’re allowed to
Simplest thing is to look for yourself. Last Epoch has a planner just like Grim Calc. Here’s the link: Last Epoch Build Planner
Just pick a class then a skill and you can play with the skill tree and see what kind of things are possible. You get 20 points if you raise a skill to level 20, but you can earn a few other points from items for certain skills, in a similar way GD has +1 or +2 to skills. But in LE, you get those as extra points to spend in the skill tree.
Notice if you see a node and cannot understand WHY you’d want that variation to a skill, the explanation is that it will combo in some subtle way with another of the class skills available to you.
After that, you can also play with the passive tree (unique to each of the 15 classes).
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ok, at a glance that looks even worse
it’s like they took a base skill modifier, then decided to be like “you know what, we can make 5 out of this 1 thing”, and just stretch it out even more, obviously some basic incremental stat upgrades, gotta have that, but could easily be the same as GD where it’s just 3-5stats in one, and then same for actual skill mods, they just pick a skill mod apart instead of have it be nice and clean and useful as a full skill/“package”
like, it’s as if wind devil was 1 base node and then an additional 3 nodes for the base, and raging tempest was 3 more, and maelstrom was 5
needlessly cut in to pieces imo - at a glance at least
I actually hope for Last Epoch to be my new main game for a few years when it’s released and I can get some new laptop. Haven’t played yet, don’t know much about it, don’t want to spoil it for myself.
Or maybe Diablo 4 but it’s not guaranteed to have good itemization / build variety.
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