Blind Sage is always better than Leviathan?

Blind Sage (BS) and Leviathan (L) require approximately the same number and type (Eldritch and Ascendant) of devotion points, and have similar procs and bonuses. In my opinion it appears that BS is (almost) always better than L, with few relevant exceptions.

Passive bonuses comparison:

+180% fire/light/cold dam vs +180% cold dam
+200% burn/elec/frost dam vs +100% frostburn dam
+10% crit dam
+50 OA
+25 spirit
+20-34 cold dam
+45 frostburn over 3 sec
+20% fire/light/cold res vs +20% cold res, +20% pierce res
+25 DA vs +40 DA
+25 physique
+5% health
+30% skill disrupt protection
+10% energy
+20% energy regen

Overall, BS provides equivalent cold damage but better DoTs and much better fire/lightning damage. While L provides valuable flat damage, BS provides OA and valuable crit damage.

Triggered Skill comparison:

Trigger: 100% chance on attack vs 30% chance on attack
Cooldown: 1.2 seconds vs 3 seconds
Radius: 3.8 mtr vs 3.5 mtr
Duration: 3 seconds vs 6 seconds
Other: 2 second stun after 3 seconds, energy burn vs 40% slower movement for 2 seconds
Damage: 400 elemental DPS + 555 elemental burst + 83 from energy burn vs 420 cold + 340 frostburn over 2 seconds

Realistic fight comparison

Lets put that into perspective of a fight which lasts 12 seconds, starting from the first time the skill is triggered, and assuming that both skills always trigger:
BS: 14480 elemental damage + up to 660 energy burn damage = 15140 damage
L: 8820 cold damage + 3910 frostburn = 12730 damage

So when both skills perfectly trigger on time, BS does substantially more damage even when ignoring energy burn. Furthermore, the damage from BS is actually mobile and seeks out targets. On top of that, Leviathan’s skill only has a 30% proc chance, while BS has a 100% proc chance. As such, L will have substantially lower damage especially in 1v1 fights.


In terms of passive bonuses, BS shines in providing much better DOT damage, as well as damage bonuses for all 3 elements instead of only cold. The +5% OA and +10% crit damage from L is arguably more valuable than the flat damage provided for by L. L provides fewer resistances, but does come with 15 more DA, +5% HP and +25 physique. Nice, but nothing spectacular. The +30% skill disruption protection from BS is a more rare defensive trait.

In terms of the procs, BS is superior to L in all regards. It procs more often, faster, does more damage, has a larger AoE, stuns instead of slows, deals 3 types of damage instead of 1, and seeks out targets.

Refuting the “cold build” exception:

Of course an exception is when you focus on cold damage but not on fire and lightning. There appear to be only two plausible scenarios in which this is true: a necromancer which deals cold+vitality(+aether) damage and a nightblade which deals cold+pierce damage.
However, I would like to argue that these exceptions (and possibly any other builds that you could come up with) would still likely benefit more (or equally) from BS than L. In both cases, we are necessarily working with the assumption that the build has a lot of Ascendant and Eldritch devotion points. These devotions predominantly provide total elemental bonuses over cold-only bonuses. It is certainly possible to chose your devotions as to only provide bonuses to cold and to no other elemental, this only appears plausible in a build which has another damage type as the main instead of cold. In that situation you are not likely to want to run L anyway, but run with a devotion of your main damage type(s).

In short, if you are interested in Leviathan, you are likely to benefit more from Blind Sage.


For elemental route i’d rather pick Tempest, Meteor Shower and leviathan for three powerful procs over BS (bullshit) proc. But passive bonuses of BS constellations are pretty sweet, no arguments there

How come not BS? The damage is superior, and in my experience it is a lot more reliable.

Thank you for the BS=bullshit pun :wink: hadn’t noticed. Shame on me.

Lol, I was laughing reading BS :rolleyes:

Anyways, the damage would be much more superior for elemental casters with those three devotion procs. Meteor is a shotgun proc, Whirlpool has high damage and you can have more than one up at a time, tempest is decent

The combined benefits of these three devotions outclass Blind Sage.

I am not sure how much improvement the Seekers AI received but two - three patches ago it was pretty bad
But Sobertooth did some testing did confirm their damage was good. But using pet attack is a bit of a bother for me

Elemental Seeker damage is now fine (it used to be quite bad) and there is no more summon limit (used to be 3). But they still use Wind Devil movement scripting, which is laughably terrible. At least they die now before they reach more than a couple of targets.

Well that’s kinda good since their explosion was their greatest feature but I think Imma stick with Meteor+Tempest+Pool

You prefer having 3 high tier devotions over just 1 high tier devotion. Wow, what a good suggestion! :wink:

Let me attempt to move this back to the actual topic of the thread by saying: Meteor+Tempest+BlindSage > Meteor+Tempest+Whirlpool. When you already have other elemental procs, Blind Sage is even more superior than Whirlpool due to its passive bonuses. This is a prime example of when Blind Sage is without any doubt better than Whirlpool.

I’ve tried BS but didn’t like the feel of the proc tbh. The elemental seekers are ok but I prefer the static AoE that almost all mobs just stand in. Though the only build I have that uses either is a spellbreaker that has whirlpool bound to blade spirits…which coat the area with several whirlpools.

Edit: blade spirit(s) can keep 2 whirlpools up constantly.

I don’t think the passive bonuses are that much better on Blind Sage or even comparable on a typical basis. If you are not hitting with a weapon that’s fine but the additional flat cold damage Leviathan provides is powerful and completely different.

I prefer Whirlpool to Elemental Seeker, in practice it deals more damage to more enemies due to the AI on seeker. I have to be a bit careful since I haven’t actually used Whirlpool since it’s cooldown was shared across multiple wind devils.

There are new procs I haven’t tried out yet and Elemental storm should be mentioned as you almost always want to take that. It’s pretty hard fitting that, Reckless tempest (don’t like that much), whirlpool, and meteor shower in. You now also have Ultos and Attak Seru to try and work in, both look pretty good.

Leviathan is cheaper (10/18 purple/green is not that similar to 13/13 purple/green; you cannot assume devotion pathways like that; you need to plot them out and directly compare the opportunity costs), adds flat damage (very strong for weapon attacks), is more efficient with cold/frostburn gear/attack builds such as Torzan.

Also, Elemental Seekers do have AI issues, which means they don’t really reach their theoretical DPS. I also wonder if two seekers around the same target stack their burns (the self-stack seems to be decided on a case by case basis? I believe Aetherfire from Imp doesn’t stack with it self, for example, but Leviathan pools do).

Just tried the Seekers on my elemental tactican (Arcanor/forcewave build), I’d take the Mirage proc any day. Arcane Currents only hits for 7k but they proc often with forcewave and hit everything in 14 meters.

Seekers need to be changed to a projectile from the sky or something. Though I did leave 3 devotion points into BS for the +80% elemental damage, +50 OA and +10% crit damage.

Hello Cthon

What is your optimal path for this?

I am currently running meteor - blizzard - tempest on an inquisitor based build i am trying to develop but would rather take leviathan over blizzard.

Like I said, the flat damage from Leviathan is good, but it is competing with +50 OA and +10% crit damage. Correct me if I’m wrong but it seems roughly equal. On top of that, BS has more +% frostburn damage.

Elemental Seekers have AI issues, but that is not always a problem. In 1v1 fights they just stick on target. Leviathan is already superior in 1v1 fights because it has a 100% proc rate while Leviathan only has 30%.

It is correct to state that the damage from Elemental Seeker will be lower than the theoretical max due to pathing. However, you can’t make this claim without acknowledging that Whirlpool will also deal less than it’s theoretical max because it is stuck in place and only has a 30% proc chance.

Hmmn, yeah BS’s proc hasn’t been that effective on my elemental gunslinger Sorcerer so I might just go whirlpool and meteor, since the Marauders set synergises with them nicely. That and my Sorc is using Star Pact because it gives more dps than the other exclusive, so whirlpool would work even better. Along with being easier to find replacement weapons, though the lack of a good +1 all demo skills plain fire/burn gun is a little annoying in terms of weaning the build off the Marauders sets of epics.

Though on my Panneti’s Replicating Missile Sorc BS does work better it seems, but then that build stacks elemental damage like crazy anyhow.