In the peak of irony, Upheaval is a great example of this. Used to be the skill was considered trash/extremely niche. Now, by making it a typical WPS, it is pumping out obscene dps numbers via Jarldin as has been the point of comparison in this thread.
The difference is that Cadence is a number’s game. It can be and has been serviceable at a minimum, if not good here and there, through the game’s lifetime with the context of whatever state the game was in at any given time.
So, could we take drastic measures like taking Cadence swings down to two instead of three, or just simply making it an outright DAR? Sure. And with Fighting Form and Deadly Momentum backing it up, it would probably be pretty immediately competitive if not busted. But what gets lost is the uniqueness of the skill. Take Onslaught stacks off Onslaught (damn I wish Crate chose different names for these), and what is the functional difference between Onslaught, Righteous Fervor, and Savagery? That samey-ness does no one any favors.
If Cadence can work as a three hit combo, I think it’s worth trying to get it there.
Not entirely. The examples given were addressing the state of Cadence itemization. The Jarldin comparison example only works because of a) Jarldin b) a bunch of item modifiers giving Upheaval 100% procrate and juiced % Weapon Damage. The point of the original post was to discuss how the item modifiers designed for Cadence thus far do not address Cadence’s desires, because Cadence is a unique skill that needs to be handled as such. Existing Cadence item modifiers have treated it like a beefed up DAR, which it isn’t, and the lens of that design philosophy is not sufficient for keeping Cadence up to speed.
Don’t have much time to type a proper feedback but I agree with almost everything here anyway. Especially the buffing of deadly momentum. If we just buff cadence itself then you’re only buffing 1/3 hits that doesn6work with wps meaning it’ll require more work.
Hence why I specifically stated my mechanical change to not be just a regular DAR but still keep the spirit of the skill intact.
That being, yes, it has a regular DAR as part of it, but it’s still all about that Cadence 3 hit combo. You just have a better baseline instead of literally nothing.
This not only would help make WPS fare better on the 2 non-Cadence attacks, but could help multiply Cadence hits to being much stronger without having to outright make it absurd% WD.
You still have your 3-hit-combo Cadence. You just don’t completely suck for 2/3 hits.
Is this better than buffing the Cadence hit to the moon? Or buffing DM to the point were it’s likely to break some other non-Cadence skills because you overbuffed a global modifier?
Who knows. Hence, consideration.
Same. Makes searching GT for items to try and make an Onslaught (Skill) build and just getting back all the 100’s of items that randomly give Onslaught (Stacks) to various other skills so annoying…
At least one person in this thread suggested a “Sizable” increase to DM’s flat damage.
It’s not just the OP that is mentioning large stat increases.
You had some important ideas. I think Cadence needs a little bit of love in its skill line. I would defer equipment changes to a later time, because while I do like this new thing of having equipment skills, I think they introduce a higher risk of running into the biggest enemy of mine in ARPGs, meta gear. And GD already has plenty of that. Its saving grace is the sheer number of build combinations we can achieve, even across the same mastery combos, that end up obfuscating this.
So, what I would personally like to see initially from the devs is some treatment of the Cadence skill line, before anything else. Despite your order of importance, I’m of the opinion the balance upgrade needs to come initially from the following three stats:
Flat Damage
I think you undervalued flat damage. With all the multipliers going into it, a flat damage increase across the skill line (distributed or concentrated in 1 or 2 skills) seems like a no brainer baseline upgrade and one that is very easy to test and finetune.
Attack Speed
I agree wholeheartedly. AS is king on Cadence. While I may disagree on his solution, I totally get @_maverick frustration with the skill. I think cadence needs to at least partially offset its mechanical limitations with some AS on the skill line and let equipment/devotions do the rest without as a high investment as is required today.
OA
You said everything that needs to be said about OA and Cadence.
These three stats could be thoroughly tested together by the devs and testers. The benefit is that you aren’t trying to do anything new or weird with the skill, and you aren’t opening it to a whole set of different problems in the future.
The following stats I wouldn’t think touching until proven necessary:
TDM
I wouldn’t dream making changes here until at least the 3 stats above combined prove insufficient or too limiting. For the simple reason of its higher risk for unintended consequences. If TDM ends up proving it needs some love, I would look at other sources for an upgrade. Like devotions, components and augments.
Targets
This is mostly only relevant in arena combat like SR and Crucible. A perfect stat for equipment-only skills.
Weapon Damage
Except for clearly cadence branded gear that few other builds would like to use, this is another risky proposition.
And if all this fails, then: Yes! Cadence mechanics suck, are outdated, or whatever, and that would be the time to discuss it.
I am not really frustrated with it. It just never truly shined. I like simple solutions and making it hit every second hit seems to me the easiest way. WPS will still be needed. Nothing will really change about that.
Rekt recently leveled using Cadence and it was a horrible experience to watch… This part should not be forgotten. Maybe + targets should be on the main skill and adding some different bonuses to Fighting Form like +speed and +max speed and onslaught stacks… Bumping up Deadly Momentum damage and giving it some OA also.
BTW his Callidor Tempest levelling was also horrible.
Eh! Cadence happens to be my favorite skill in the entire game. Three expansions and four new classes in, and Crate still couldn’t beat it for me. And I thought this was because I’m a simple man.
Sadly I can’t watch the vid cause it keeps wanting me to download the app (which I don’t have).
But did you just turn this entire discussion upside-down with the most unlikely build possible? Damn we’ll need to study cadence more I guess. Wanna ask though, how much have you guys tried phys cadence? Cause it feels like that’s the main concern for most of the people here.
I think it’s a misconception to call Cadence an auto attack like Savagery or Righteous Fervor. It is 100% not and it cannot even proc WPS. So comparing these skills makes no sense at all. Cadence is NOT an auto attack.
Cadence is basically a fancy cooldown skill. But your cooldown scales with attack speed, so faster attacking = lower cooldown on cadence.
With that in mind, it makes more sense to compare cadence to other melee CD skills. I think a small buff is valid, such as +targets or some flat damage on the base skill. But cadence does not need to compete with Savagery or any other AA. Don’t give it a million % weapon damage please.
I again don’t think this is the takeaway. I’d be a little curious to see how that build fares in Ascendant, and relying on both TDM potion modifiers should not be a prerequisite of buildcraft for a skill.
Frankly? This reads as being intentionally naive.
Cadence is an autoattack. It has been built and played like an autoattack. Hence it is fair to compare it to other autoattacks. And even if it cannot proc WPS on the third strike, and even if it provides no multiplicative WD% to WPS, it still has compatibility with them unlike other melee CD skills, such as Primal Strike or Blade Arc.
The thing is… Cadence directly competes with other DAR.
Unlike cooldown skills which can co-exist with DAR’s (Maybe you don’t invest heavily into them but you can at least whack Beronath’s Fury on - Which I noticed got given 2 Onslaught stacks with FoA)
Cadence is mutually exclusive to DAR’s and thus is compared to them. Just like how zero cooldown skills like Blade Arc/Forcewave/Phantasmal Blades can be compared to them.
Similar thing to say, Feral Claws which is also an auto attack (Also, like Cadence, cannot benefit from WPS - Though Cadence can proc WPS between Cadence hits)
All these things will be compared to other DAR and zero cooldown WD% skills as they are all functionally the same. That being, a skill to spam that is a replacement for the default attack (Hence the moniker “Default attack replacer”).
I don’t mean we just accept what he says as is, but rather that there’s now a different point of view we have to consider since before it everyone including me was just like cadence bad, period.
Also tdm potions (well the damage part) affect every build the same way so if you’re not the kind of person who uses both or even one then you can just compare no potion vs no potion. I’m aware that’s a lot harder to do without gdstashing or asking people for saves though. A 3:10 SR 30-31 build with both potions will probably be still below 4 mins with only 1 potion which is still decent all things considered.
But to me the important thing is the discussion now has more layers especially on what ideas we can go for on buffing cadence.
There are 3 things being omitted in the comparison
Deadly Momentum giving 220 flat damage, which is very good when alternatives like Lethal Assault and Soul harvest tax your item slot for conversion since the damage is split. A late game 1 hander deals 160 damage without aug/component for comparison.
Cadence is half way between Blade Arc and a true attack replacer. It has consistent multi hitting capability. It’s not really fair to disregard the comparison to non-WPS compatible skills.
Cadence has the fast charge hidden mechanic.
Most skills in the game don’t have nearly as many scaling dimensions as true attack replacers, but that doesn’t necessarily make them invalid. A skill with fewer built in scaler is often accompanied with larger modifiers on items. I don’t think Cadence is an outlier in this argument, as in if the devs feel that Cadence is underperforming, then either mechanical change (fewer changes etc) or numerical change (bigger skill modifier bonus, bigger modifiers on other skills in the archetype like IEE or Arcane Will) will suffice.
I honestly don’t know what’s the value in this discussion on categorizing and comparing Cadence to other skills. And the fact there are diverging opinions only makes me want to believe it is its own thing and we should instead be discussing what can be done to it. But maybe you guys know better.
, which also has been powercrept by the aa+wps interactions.