The way I finally understand Cadence is like this. The first two parts of the skill are similar to a wps (skill triggered from a default attack) that gets triggered 33% of the time and that is always present in the build if you use Cadence. The “real” default attack replacer is the third part of the skill - Deadly momentum. Because this part is applied to everything, default attacks and triggered skills. So, now I have a firm grasp over the exact structure of Cadence. The issue that I have is that all the gear that modifies Cadence seems to be applied only to the first two parts (the triggered attack), but not to Deadly Momentum. For any other default attack replacer, the gear’s skill modifier applies to it. Did I get the information wrong or is it true that no skill modifier to Cadence will apply to Deadly Momentum and any other wps that gets triggered from it?
Deadly momentum is a temporary buff, most valued for it’s flat damage. What kind of modifier would you like to add to a temporary buff?
Conversions can be attached to other buffs soldier mastery provides.
Ok, then what’s the point to have damage type conversions, for example, that specifically target Cadence, but not any wps that triggers from the default attack, if the only solution is to use global conversions? Why do these items even exist? Surely no one would rely only on Cadence, you usually grab other wps as well. For any other def attack replacer, a skill modifier that converts its damage type is carried to the wps as well, from what I understood. To have consistency, Cadence should’ve behaved the same. And Deadly Momentum is the actual def attack replacer, even if it acts as a buff. Because Righteous fervor also activates a buff that grows in power with more charges, but it’s still a def attack replacer. Cadence itself can’t be the def attack replacer (technically speaking) from the soldier class because it acts just like a wps.
Understanding all the Cadence mechanics is an art form in itself.
- Accept that the skill will always somehow perform below your expectations.
- max out Deadly Momentum
- and get global conversion for all your damage, rather than conversion to just Cadence
And then just hit stuff, don’t overthink it. It’s an unga-bunga skill with way too complicated mechanics.
it’s not, you’re misunderstanding cadence/what a dar is and what Deadly Momentum is (possibly because of DM 3rd node vs Cadence discharge happening on 3rd strike?)
Deadly Momentum is the same as Lethal Assault and Soul Harvest, it’s a secondary effect, think of it as an unrelat proc triggering from specific skill use, the trigger skill is then Cadence (the discharge), the proc is then a global buff. Same as LA trigger “from” ABB and Soul Harvest triggering off Bone Harvest
Cadence is the DAR, 2nd node is a modifier to cadence, DM is a secondary effect mechanic/“self contained proc” (if that helps illustrate what secondary effects are in GD) activating when Cadence itself is used(ie discharge hit)
Trust me, I can understand things just fine and I agree that it’s “just a buff”, but if that were the case, then there is no def attack replacer in Cadence. You only have normal attacks and a wps (Cadence itself) that triggers 1/3 of the time. So, if I wouldn’t think of Deadly Momentum as the actual def attack replacer, then there would be none. So, Deadly Momentum kind of acts like the def attack replacer. Although it’s also applied to skills like Blade Arc, if I think about it, so yes, it’s a bit of an overstretch to call it the actual def attack replacer. So, we’re left only with a wps and a buff. But taking this wps and buff doesn’t allow you to actually take a def attack replacer as well. So, what’s the point of this skill’s existence if it’s not an actual def attack replacer (like all the rest), so you can carry bonuses and changes from it to the wps?
if you understood you wouldnt’ be saying what you’re saying…
it’s very simple
“that’s not it”
i tried, but if you insist cadence is a wps and there is no dar, refute the DM interaction/“Dm is a secondary effect mechanic that is a buff” i don’t know where to take it from there 
- you’ve been informed, do with that what you wish
You can select it as your dar, I agree. But that doesn’t make it a dar, since all the other dar(s) carry their bonuses and conversions to any wps.
you’re conflating that all DARs are the same/act the same and should, that’s not what makes a dar a dar, Cadence is a DAR even if it’s a special/“non similar behaving DAR as RF/SAV”
No, Cadence is just a wps that gets triggered 1/3 of the time and which triggers a buff (as it’s technically defined), but is blocking you to use underneath only the default and barren attack, to trigger other wps. Cadence doesn’t trigger the other wps, it’s the underlying barren default attack that’s used for the first two hits. So, Cadence isn’t a true dar and it blocks you from using one (making you use only the blank default attack). What I’m trying to say is that being able to select it as a dar doesn’t make it one.
Well, you’re both right in a way.
Cadence is a dar, which means it can trigger other WPS
But it’s also true to say that it ACTS like a WPS (Albeit a predictable one that triggers exactly every 3 hits) since unlike, say, savagery, it adds nothing to the base attack…
So while Gnomish is technically correct (the best kind of correct) I think the way Mar explains how he sees it is also a reasonable approximation. 
Yes, in a sense… but it’s just because Cadence is front-loaded… there are no dar in the game that scale quite like the 3rd hit from cadence… the only place where cadence is not as good as other dar is that other WPS only trigger 2/3 of the expected time.
have fun with cadence then 
i’m out
No, I’m not having fun with Cadence and I’m still asking (someone else maybe) what’s the point of having skill modifiers that convert Cadence’s damage type, if the conversion isn’t carried over to any wps? Like it happens to any other dar in the game. And in the end I’d like to propose a technical revision to this skill because it seems odd that people who are so amazing at making this game can make such a big mistake with this skill. It should be quite easy to turn it into a real dar, from a perspective of mechanics.
I prefer the opposite take, that they’re both wrong!
Saying that Cadence is a WPS with a 33% proc rate is terribly misrepresentative of the way WPS work, and Cadence does not count against the WPS pool (the P in WPS).
However, it’s also fair to say that Cadence is not a DAR, as nothing about the skill modifies one’s default attack or confers any bonuses thereof.
Cadence is Cadence.
Which is also very fair 
devo assignment triggers says otherwise 
(technically R stands for replacer not modifier) 
There’s definitely a certain Praetorian that would have an aneurysm if this were to happen.
Noob bait.
Gotta have some Elemental Cadence Battlemages, to balance out the Top 20. 
We just had one.
The skill is so ingrained into the DNA of Grim Dawn, that removing/changing the unique mechanics now would probably upset people a lot more, than it would fix builds.
I don’t want to go into Cadence mechanics in detail, you can search for those threads here on the forum.
It’s different enough from an actual default attack. It’s also not the same as Savagery etc.
The details involve internal cooldown for the charges, different animation types and speeds etc, so you won’t really improve your understanding, unless you actually watch Cadence attacks in slow motion.
First two hits are just normal attacks , all the conversions , damage listed on the skill and even the mutator aplies just for the third hit . Deadly momentum is secondary effect so local conversion doesn’t kick in , easiest way to play Cadence in my humble opinion is as Pierce since Darmpetrean slicers converts the flats from deadly momentum by default due to pierce ratio
I’d like our discussion to be civil, if possible, since I didn’t offend anyone. You can explain your point of view without insults or being condescending. From a logical perspective, Cadence isn’t a dar and that’s that. There are easy ways I’m sure to make it a real dar. Like Righteous Fervor or Savagery, make it have charges and when the number of charges is a multiple of 3, discharge the extra damage of the first two parts of the skill, as a dedicated wps. Otherwise, discharge any other wps. There you go, problem solved.