Chillwhisper apostate, providing feedback and asking for help

Grim Dawn Ideas and Feedback
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This is a continuation of my bitching fit in 1.1.9.8 discussion thread, where I came complaining about Chillwhisper apostate being garbage. This time, I “took” the poor thing through the Crucible 150-170 and SR 75-76 (with some caveats I’ll cover below), so I have actual practical feedback to give.

So, here is the build I’ve been currently testing:

Shoutout to @Nery for the initial draft that sent me on this journey.

Now, I’m not a theorycrafter. I do have 2k hours in GD, but this is my first attempt at gathering a proper build myself. If anybody has advices on how to improve it, I’m all ears.

The feedback, from worst to less worst:

  1. Energy management is an absolute, build-defining garbage, and the cornerstone of many other issues. DE with the set is completely unsustainable, both in the original Nery’s build and in all my modifications. This forced me towards Leviathan route, with the weird detour towards Harp just to make the build functional.

Solution: plug energy regen into the set, maybe an active skill, to make energy sustainable. And it needs A LOT. Maybe buff energy cost modifier for DE on the dagger. I don’t think it will break Infiltrator or Reaper that much. Dropping Harp will free up the points to go and grab circuit breakers the build desperately needs.

  1. Damage is garbage on all the skills. DE on this set is simply weak, despite me going an extra mile to plug weapon damage into it. Alternative setup with more resist shred doesn’t work either, and the energy management prohibits build from going into Ulthos. Out of the 20 builds I’ve dragged through 75-76 SR and 150-170 CR this is one of the slowest.

Now, another aspect of the build and the set is Rune of Hagarrad. I can not stress enough how trash this skill is on its own, and how trash the Chillwhisper support for it is. It deals no damage. At all.

That build link above? I lied, that’s not what I took to the SR 75-76. I’ve cheated in more skill points to max RoH and see how will it perform. Guess what, even with all the nodes maxed, it still deals no damage and remains garbage. I’ve played Rune of Kalastor on Octavius tactician before, and that RoK was absolutely amazing. RoH has no excuse to be that weak in comparison. Even as DA shred it’s bad and inconsistent, by nature of its arming time and the idiotic spread pattern.

Solution: I honestly don’t have any. There are 2 other classes at play with this set, and I don’t know what buffs would be appropriate to Apostate. General RoH buffs would be nice, to make it a viable skill. And to make it viable within the Apostate combo, it needs more bonuses from the set.

  1. Survivability is problematic. Now, this is the field I feel least sure in, due to many many factors in play, but I’ll try. The biggest issue is lack of circuit breakers, obviously. Bad energy regen and bad damage prohibit me from grabbing defensive devotions, so solving at least 1 of those 2 will improve survivability of the build by freeing devotion points from Harp or Amatok.

Otherwise, the build heavily depends on proactive defenses. It needs to stay in the seal, it needs to hit enemies with DE and SS before they crush into you, or you will die. This creates a lot of rippy situations, and make the char extremely vulnerable to the opening burst of any encounter. On the other hand, it can facetank SR75 Reaper of the Lost reasonably well, so it’s not all bad.

Solution: solve the first 2 problems. Maybe some more armor/phys res would be nice.

  1. Stat budgeting. I’ve used GD stash to get those green items, to fix up the holes in OA, DA and casting speed. Without them, the damage and survivability would be even lower than they are now. I don’t think this is a good position for the build, to rely on specific MIs and affixes to function as bad as this one does.

Solution: add casting speed to the inquisitor side of Chillwhisper set. Maybe to Word of Renewal. This will keep the Reapers out of it, and probably won’t affect Infiltrators, IDK. More OA and DA on the set would also be definitely welcome.

And this is it. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with the set or the class combo, there is a fun and visually pleasing playstile for Apostate under all that rubbish. It probably won’t be killing superbosses any time soon, but it just needs more to shine in the general gameplay.

Now, I know I’m late with the feedback. But here’s @Zantai summoning ritual, for devs to maybe read this and still make adjustments for the patch. I don’t want to drop the char, I made an absolutely sick fashion combo for her. Please fix her.

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I tested in 1.1.9.8
My build Apostate, Level 100 (GD 1.1.9.7)
_ChillApostate.zip (866.9 KB)
works in SR 75-76 but I could see this getting some buff, it’s definitely far from top damage wise and quite fragile.
Seems to be the weakest overall out of 3 Chillwhisper classes.

  • I started with Spirit dump and Elemental Storm

  • found it too fragile so I changed Storm to Scales for its passive healing that scales with mob density

  • I was still not satisfied so I made a Physique dump and it felt ok

(Fabius killed me at the end, this build should not facetank him with pot and MoT on cooldown I suppose although this might have been a bit unlucky because I did facetank him before that)

[edit] ah, so that’s why Fabius is tougher image

I tested in 1.1.9.8

Personally I didn’t notice Energy problems with the Spirit dump variant or Scales variant. Harp is not hard to include in Cold devotion so I think it’s fine if it needed for Energy management. It’s nice that it’s actually used sometimes you know. Spirit dump should be an option too if you get more DA from greens for example.

Maxed out and converted RoH is not bad at all but I can see you not being satisfied with it when we don’t have Pierce → Cold conversion and intertwining it with Drain Essence makes the latter lose damage / sustain.

Mark of Torment is one although I have yet to check the definition of circuit breaker.

The beginning of the fight can be risky for sure. You need to cast Inquisitor Seal (and Omen in my case) immediately and it takes Drain Essence quite some time to start leeching. I have Turtle which protects you in openings somewhat.

@Serafim_94 some weak points of your build I see

  • too low Physical resistance but at least Reaper as you said is not difficult for this build

  • no Acid res overcap will have you killed sometimes

  • devotions are not bound, hopefully only in Grim Tools

  • I feel like Ignaffar’s Combustion with its Elemental res debuff is too good to pass over

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Thanks m8, much appreciated. Will definitely try your setup. I went through PTS thread around here, and the build will be getting damage buffs to both DE and RoH.

So far my biggest 2 problems on the build in SR were Korvaak (he just kills me no matter what) and, strangely enough, Muusaluke. That’s an absolute first time for me to have issues with the guy - he doesn’t freeze me even, just bursts me down. Well, and Gargabol, but fuck Gargabol anyway. Rest of nemeses are fine with all the normal precautions taken.

My meaning of it - things like Giant’s blood or Ghoulish hunger. Or Blast shield etc. Whatever activates on a health drop and bumps you back up/ keeps you alive. Mark of torment is good, but with my config - not enough.

Harp indeed isn’t hard to include, but I’d rather spend those points on Turtle, or Ghoul, or literally anything for survivability. I’ll try the scales

Yeah, it’s my theorycrafting sheet. Rumor on DE, Storm on Seal, Whirlpool on SS and Blizzard on rune. Works like a charm.

Maybe. I’m torn on the weapon damage loss on DE though.

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Ok so I haven’t done Chillwhisper on Apostate but I have done it on Reaper and it played really, really nicely, the damage was a beaut to behold and it was very comfortable and sturdy despite bugger all for phys res (did 4 out of 5 SR75-80 runs within timer and it wasn’t even sweaty). I think Scales is a must to sustain your energy, my variant has about 60 % more energy regen than yours and I’d still have no hope in hell of sustaining without Inspiration and Scales.

Besides that I’m really not sure about the inclusion of Night Herald, I don’t think it does nearly enough. I feel the way DE builds can really thrive is if they have a giiiirthy chunk of health (both the Reaper and my Aether Spellbinder have a sliver under 20k hp). Cause if you can’t get nuked into oblivion by a single sudden burst, DE renders you next to immortal (barring cc lock). To that end I think swapping to M. Gravetouch will make you a lot sturdier with all the health it brings, even though it’s really a Reaper item.

As for RoH, yeah that support is a yoke and even if it was quite a bit better, I’m not sure I’d ever want to stop casting DE for some marginal nukage. The moment DE’s not casting on a DE build is the moment I no longer feel comfortable with my choices. That’s when dying happens. I’m not sure what galactic scale buffing would be necessary to make RoH worth casting. I mean, yeah, there’s the DA shred but my build has nothing in terms of OA compared to yours just as a baseline and has no DA shred and damage has been a non-issue for me despite me not really capitalising on DE’s massive crit damage. And while the freeze on RoH is nice, DE has freeze too and while the percentage is tiny, at that tick rate and in combination with Blizzard, there’s no lack of freezing anyway. Maybe if RoH got like a full “I’m the core of this set” level buff. It eats way too many points, I mean, it’s essentially a 4-node skill and for that, does it really pull its weight? I did a Double Rune Pierce Infiltrator some time ago (it was mediocre) and the 2-node (mostly 1-node, cause Ignition ain’t that important) RoK seemed way more impactful than the 3-node RoH, Maybe RoH in general could use some love, not just on Chillwhisper.

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I tested in 1.1.9.8 already. I forgot about Chillwhisper buffs and didn’t think it mattered. I updated my previous post with this detail

He wasn’t easy for me either iirc. Kubacabra felt really slow the one time I met it. Btw I really like that in Grim Dawn different nemeses are hard for different builds

I feel like Reaper is a different story. You get Blade Spirits leeching for you, PB, BB. I made a super tanky one that could take Ravager w/o MoT, cluster or hp pot even. Callagadra felt doable too (difficult fight though). But my Apostate is build differently, with RoH focus too. Might be a factor.

I kinda disagree but I don’t have a video proof yet. Buffs are always welcome though, don’t get me wrong. I’m very interested in Pierce RoH builds without RoK. I have some theorycraft where RoH is 75% stronger according to my calculation than in some great Pierce Rune build on the forum. I’m clueless about RoK, never played it. So far I leveled Pierce RoH in main campaign and it works great there. I’m planning to make a guide for beginner and endgame 2h Pierce caster Infiltrators (beginner & endgame Spite PB, Pierce RoH leveling and custom Gildors RoH endgame build).

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Cold has probably some of the most hard-countery nemeses in the game. Between Moose, who has Cold immune crystals (just why 500 % cold res?) that freeze, damage and give him a 50% dmg absorb aura (wtf) and Kuba, who’ll sometimes heal faster than you damage it if it’s having a good day, it’s like Cold nemeses specifically are just on a mission to not recognise your damage as valid. If you run into Moose as the first boss in the SR boss room where the other side is book-ended by the Malmouth council members, it’s basically game over, cause it’s crystals everywhere and you have no room to pull him away.

If Grava was cold resistant it’d be all over for Cold builds.

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Well, Scales are a notable improvement in survivability, while still keeping energy manageable. Damage feels like it went down. Maybe it’s because my last 3 SR runs are with monster elemental res mutators because of course they are -_-

Kuba is indeed very slow, but otherwise non-threatening. Same with Fabius. Muusa went from killing me to just being annoying bitch. Haven’t met Korvaak again, but can carefully facetank SR Mad queen now, which is a respectable milestone for survivability.

Time to see if ele shred from relic and book are worth the weapon damage loss.

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The bottomline as of current testing:

RR from Ignaffar relic and Speaker for the dead is an unquestionable damage gain over any possible combinations of dual wield with the MI in my build. That’s depressing, I really liked to run with Shard of Aesterkarn and Ravager’s bite transmogs.

Shifting from Elemental storm to Tip the scales is a gaping damage loss. However, survivability gain was direly needed, and can’t be argued against.

Adding (by blatantly cheating) or substracting 16 points from RoH, 8 points from Chillsurge and 10 points from Artifact handling, on the other hand, is such a miniscule damage gain/loss that it’s impossible to perceive, and doesn’t stand anywhere near the difference of Storm/Scales. I can not stress enough how garbage RoH is as a skill on this set, both as a support or, god forbid, damage source. Do hope Infiltrators have it better somehow.

And overall damage is trash. Survivability improves to a decent degree with TQfan’s setup, where the build can tank many menacing bosses, but the time to kill them is miserable, and the AOE, which should be strong on paper, is terribly insufficient. Build does offer a good amount of CC though, which serve it well against crowds.

I’ve played both other beam spells before, on Clairvoyant spellbinder for AAR, and Mageslayer mage hunter for FoI (trielemental for extra memes). And, to be honest, the survivability AND damage potential of both are SO ahead of this one, that claiming this build here is somehow tanky is a bad joke. This build is my first attempt to play DE, and so far it’s the absolute worst of the 3 even when not looking at the set. Leveling was painful, and the endgame performance is… well. This is the thread about it.

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Going to try and run a few times with Gravetouch. Given DE’s range, I really don’t like what Ill Omen does for the build.

Edit: Doesn’t work. Dagger gives overall bigger flat bonus, buffs cold more, plugs the hole in my casting speed and buffs Aura of Censure to boot. Both lose to Speaker. Which is also a Reaper item anyway.

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Going to wind down my runs and move on to Defiler leveling torture. I don’t think there are options left to improve the build in current live version.

The final note of this escapade is the overall item support for cold DE. It entirely defaults to Reaper for no real reason. I’d like to complain about that aspect in more detail.

Overall, necro doesn’t offer a lot of native cold support. That leaves cold Chillwhisper DE (which almost completely loses its vitality aspect) to be supported by 2 classes we’re having on display here - nightblade or inquisitor. Thing is, both classes offer comparable cold support.

Auras? Check. Night’s chill at rank 10 shreds 25% cold resist, just like Aura of Censure at rank 12.

We have a heal/buff that buffs elemental damage? Check. Sure, Elemental awakening gives twice more cold damage than Steel resolve, but Inquisitor also offers damage buffs from Seal and Deadly aim. Overall passive cold buff from Nightblade is 210% on maxed nodes alone. Inquisitor gives 135% when in seal, and same 210% when under Deadly aim. Sure, it’s less consistent - but there’s nothing fundamentally wrong with cold Inquisitor.

Except for item support. Within the context of cold DE on Chillwhisper, what is the choice of the offhands? Gravetouch - a blatant Reaper item that loses half its value on Apostate. Speaker for the Dead? A Reaper item (though admittedly for a different main skill). Scion of Bitter Winds, which I remembered exists over night? A Reaper item, and a dual-wield to boot. Something that Reaper can easily get, while Apostate can not. Same for Night herald - you need to bend over backwards to fit in into the build on Apostate, where Reaper can just… wield it. GG. Deathbound amulet? Reaper item. Want to convert piercing damage to cold for RoH? Too bad, that’s either a dual wield weapon or a pair of Nightblade rings.

Would Gravetouch offer the same buff to Censure as it does to Veil of Shadow, it would easily be best in slot here. Would the Chillwhisper set offer baked in dual wield to Inquisitor, it would open up the usage of 2 different MIs and Scion of bitter winds - but it doesn’t (don’t get me started on physical res in it). Instead the build is stuck with Speaker - a non-DE offhand - just to patch resist shred into something usable. And DE could REALLY use another flat damage source here.

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Great, detailed breakdown. If additional flat damage were to be added to DE I think it really needs to be an Apostate exclusive, like a mod to WoR. The Reaper variant really isn’t lacking for damage at all (to draw a comparison, my Uroboruuk Spellbinder which I found very successful at high SR outputs 182k sheet DE dps where Reaper sits at 267k, and Reaper has Blade Spirits for damage to boot while Spellbinder just channels channels channels).

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I think they should buff set’s bonuses to Rune of Hagarrad greatly first.
It looks like set is meant to support it, but in fact it barely matters. IMO, it should turn Rune of Hagarrad into a strong CD nuke with debuff to support DE, but it doesnt. It only provides +35 base damage for a skill that deals hundreds of base damage, and that’s it. There is no 100% Pierce->Cold conversion for Rune of Hagarrad on it (so you wont lose half of its base damage), no +2 projectile to Rune of Hagarrad, no other sweet bonuses. It’s just plain boring +skill bonuses, and that’s NOT enough for me, not even close.
What’s the point in going Apostate for this build then? You can just go for any other mastery with cold RR (Shaman, Demo, Oathkeeper, Occultist) and it would show around the same performance probably. Of course, going for Nightblade shows the best results because it IS actually supported by set (Blade Spirit bonuses) AND other items (Gravetouch, etc.).
I’d also add something like +2 sec CD, damage multiplied by +100% for Rune of Hagarrad, so it would keep its DPS without interrupting DE channelling too often. Because breaking your channeling every 1.7 seconds or so is absolutely detrimental for your DE DPS.

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I also wanted to type this idea. Would flow with DE better.

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After about a dozen “one more final runs” - just put a dualwield enabler somewhere in the Chillwhisper set. Neither Reaper nor Infiltrator would really benefit from it, while the amount of weaponry that would become available to the build with such a simple change is absurd. Crescent moon for example, which gives better RoH bonus than entire Chillwhisper set.

Speaker for the dead is terrible on the build. Not the item itself, but the need to cast and re-cast Ill omen. It interrupts DE cast, and in SR creates situations of absolutely uncontrollable mass pulls, on a build that lacks AOE to effectively cleave big packs or even target-kill Arcane mobs.

Edit: for clarification, the build simply isn’t viable without double RR from offhand and the relic. 10% from Ignaffar’s combustion makes or breaks what little performance it has.

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Current model, with patched elemental resists out of seal (got chainkilled in the Gazer shard without it) and Nightshard. Still suffers from most of issues discussed, but eliminates Ill omen from the build without losing too much RR. Still can crawl through Resistant mutator in SR, if slowly. Added SS duration also somewhat alleviates the need to interrupt DE, and the FX change is dope.

On some of versions met Korvaak second time. He is still lethal (and actually killed me in campaign, yay), but at least he can be killed with some luck. Unlike the first iterations.

P.S. This poor apostate is also my only char to die on the bridge out of Devil’s Crossing on veteran, literally in the beginning on the game. Now that was an ill omen.

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With patch buffs, the build in its last version is still pretty slow to clear through SR75-76. However, it’s faster than before, and killing Muusalake isn’t a dreadful slog anymore.

It also became much safer - due to buffs to its AOE damage, DR increase, and due to monster changes. It isn’t screwed as often by healing hero mobs. It can stand its ground against nemesis+hero pack now, where before it was mostly an instant death. Arcane heroes are still hard to deal with due to inability to snipe them - but even that matchup is overall safer.

I still believe putting dualwield into Chillwhisper set bonus would open it for more experimentation.

Overall, while nowhere close to top, it’s a reliable and functional build now, with fun theme and strong aesthetic. Unless somebody else wants to do the honors, I’ll post it into the build section.

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