ditto… ive logged literally hundreds (maybe thousands, even… which is kinda sad when i think about it) of hours in TQ, which makes the legendary edition a no-brainer…
I think that this is a great Idea just to see how well it really works, because you hear alot of bad things about publishers, and any system that keeps the control in the hands of the developers is a good system in my book.
“Vote with your pocketbook.”
This is one of the phrases that get tossed around that doesn’t really work. Why doesn’t it work? Because it’s just not the way retail gaming works. Hopefully here we have a chance to do just that.
Beware an incoming wall of text.
There are a few things that I just want to say about this topic. First, this is the single most likely way to have a significant vote as to the content of your games. Second, most of the portions of the game industry DO NOT LIKE IT. Third, it truly won’t hurt retail. Fourth, many people will translate their own misgivings into a dislike for the idea.
This method of funding is the only way voting with your pocketbook works. In a normal situation, there are many people down the line that take significant portions of the proceeds from a game sale. Retailers love to take huge chunks of cash in return for more/better shelf space, allowing publishers to put up advertising displays, and gracing your product with the illustrious endcap. Publishers will often put up money, but also demand control over the product content and protection, can make unreasonable demands for timed milestones to be met, may strangle the IP if they get their grubby hands on it, and will take large chunks of cash from sales. If you send something to a console, the license holder for that system will take handfuls of money for themselves. All of this and the huge anonymous population that patronizes normal gaming channels means your vote is so watered down, it really doesn’t matter. Only with a direct contribution to an independent developer who owns their own IP will actually have meaning. Stripping down the layers means your purchase pays for their salary. They have a direct accountability to you as a consumer and you support them. If you want to support the mainstream channels, go buy a game at your local Best Buy. If you want to support a developer, you need to support their project directly.
Most people in the industry really won’t like this model. Retail and publishers are just going to see this as a slap in the face. I can pretty much guarantee you that major outlets won’t be terribly interested in carrying this if Crate carries through with a more direct model. Retail likes to think they’re special, they want to make scads of money and have people line up outside their holy holy holy stores. While there may be smaller stores that don’t exhibit such crass behavior, mainstream retail doesn’t really give a damn about developers. Publishers themselves have a certain disconnect. Most of them are suits, they don’t play many games nor do they care. It’s business to them. They are there to make money, and they don’t like it when people try to bypass them. In truth, only the working women/men of the industry, the designers, artists, audio professionals, testers, and perhaps their direct managers, will actively support such a method. Expect the retail/publishers desire that this model fail to be publicly expressed.
This game doesn’t truly have the potential to actively hurt anyone. It’s geared towards people, not the public. The scale and goals are about quality of the project with a specific amount of resources, not about mass market appeal and bloated budgets. The real question is, will the market they are appealing to come together to support Crate Entertainment?
Last point, I promise. There will be a lot of negative comments about this made. They are not necessarily based on solid fact, but are rather motivated by the personal misgivings of those making them. I’ve heard people pass judgement saying it’s silly or stupid to donate. Perhaps it is for them, but they’re not in a position to dictate that for others. At this point, it is an investment. It’s like a broad appeal for micro angel investors. Well, not really, since we’re taking our returns in “Great Game” instead of “Filthy Lucre”. However, the idea is similar. We are taking a risk on a concept and putting up a collectively substantial funding in order that CE has the resources and control to create a worthy product. The most that a critic could say based on facts is that it is risky. They should respect that the decision of contributors has very little to do with the contributors intelligence. We are not paying for a game that isn’t made yet, we’re voting with our pocketbooks.
Awesome post Karmacappa! I really enjoyed reading it and I agree, I voted for these guys, I really want these game developers to succeed in this world, and to be honest we need more game developers like these that are willing to listen to their fans and hear about what they have to say.
I think all developers and designers should have a solid idea for the game, but I appreciate very much knowing that we as a fan base have been heard and are being listened to. I’m hoping that with healthy debate we can all help the developers of this game make informed decisions about it’s specific aspects.
Cheers!
That’s an interesting & well laid out post Karmacappa, though I disagree with most of it 
(I agree with the bit about people talking down donations/very-early-pre-orders due to their own concerns/etc rather than society’s moral issue with the concept, or something). As you say, if someone wants to pre-order/donate, they can, if they don’t, no-one’s forcing them to, but that’s people for you.
Retailers & publishers aren’t intrinsically evil, there’s no difference between Retailer A wanting people to come into their store(s) & spend lots of money, Publisher B wanting people to buys lots of whatever it is they’re publishing & Developer C wanting people to love their game & buy lots of it. They all have their own agenda (usually focussed on their own financial growth & survival, again, not a bad thing in & of itself), but just because all of those agendas aren’t exactly lined up doesn’t make the retailers/publishers evil. Publishers & retailers want games to be successful as much as (if not more than) developers, after all, they’re putting their own resources (money, shelf-space) behind the project, you might be surprised by the passion that non-devs have for games/gaming.
Having worked at an FMCG (the equivalent of the dev/publisher), if they’re anything like the people I worked with, they won’t want everyone else to fail, they just want to do better than the other guys/gals in the market & anything that can grow the market is good, though obviously it’s best if you are the one doing the market growing.
Also, your post comes across (to me at least) as though you think that devs are martyrs. I don’t think they are, they may well be in a hard position & they may well often get the ****y end of the stick when it comes to investment, control of the end product/dev process & the developer/publisher relationship (after all, not everyone’s as large as Blizzard & able to dictate their own terms as far as quality, release dates, etc), but hopefully Crate/Grim Dawn can be successful & show that this particular funding model isn’t as bad as some people think that it is & bring a bit more balance to the dev/publisher relationship. The publishers may not think so, but I think that this can only be a good thing if it enables more (smaller?) dev’s to be able to release innovative interesting games that are financially successful (ie, give a good return on the investment & enable the devs/publishers to make more games in the future). It’s good for the devs (more control, better cashflow, better reputation due to higher quality games being released), it’s good for publishers/retailers (more sales) & it’s good for us gamers (better games, more innovative games that aren’t just revised team lists on last year’s sports game).
[rant mode]
(usually focussed on their own financial growth & survival, again, not a bad thing in & of itself)
I actually see that as a really bad thing in and of itself. You’ll hardly ever find people so harsh, cold, calculating and completely and solely focussed on their own welfare as a corporation. A corporation is artificial, it has no heart of itself. The consciousness of a company is reflected in its employees. The bigger the company, the less attachment there is to human morale, not necessarily, but this is often the case. This is mostly true for companies with shared stocks, as it’s the big shareholders who decide what happens and they usually have no attachment to the company except for profit. They’ll force rules and regulations through that hurt a lot of people, but are good for the profit. Not the long-term profit, only the short-term - they’ll burn a company down if it’s good for their pockets.
Kill people for profit? Not directly, but they will lower the money invested in safety measures where possible. This will statistically inevitably result in more deaths. So yes, they do in fact kill for money.
I don’t think they’re doing this on purpose though; shareholders have no attachment to the company and don’t see what is happening in the company. They just want to see their shares rising in value. It’s the business system that brings out the worst in companies.
The only thing restraining a corporation from doing stuff like that is the people working at the company; and their influence is controlled by the size of the company and wether or not the company has a shared stockholder.
Oh, and also getting bad press, which will cause them problems. And that’s just another cold calculation; if they can get away with it, they will.
Free market, gotta love it.
[/rant mode]
Anyway, to cut a long story short, while the little man can definetely have a heart for the gaming industry, the big publishers have no interest in products if they’re not making big bucks off of it - and can, will and have burned companies to the ground for profit.
^couldn’t have said it better myself.
The reverse is also true though, the consciousness of a company is the sum of what the employees believe, what they do & how they do it. While employees can be “borged” by a company’s culture, it’s those very same employees who are defining the culture, so if a corporate culture is cold & unforgiving, it’ll be due to the employees (most likely the upper management) leading by example.
This is mostly true for companies with shared stocks, as it’s the big shareholders who decide what happens and they usually have no attachment to the company except for profit.
Yes, publicly traded companies have additional pressures on them to deliver profitable growth, but of all the publicly traded companies I’ve worked for (5 in ~10 years) most of them (4) had a positive culture (yes, we want to make a profit, but we’re not going to, and don’t need to, screw over all & sundry to do it). The only one that didn’t have a particularly pleasant culture was American (and full of actuaries/accountants to boot).
Kill people for profit? Not directly, but they will lower the money invested in safety measures where possible. This will statistically inevitably result in more deaths. So yes, they do in fact kill for money.
I don’t think they’re doing this on purpose though; shareholders have no attachment to the company and don’t see what is happening in the company. They just want to see their shares rising in value.
True, but corporate manslaughter is illegal (I think) & if a company’s safety measures were found to be sub-standard, they would be fined (at the very least) & the stockmarket wouldn’t react very well at all to a company that doesn’t make sure that it’s employees/consumers/etc are safe.
It’s the business system that brings out the worst in companies.
The only thing restraining a corporation from doing stuff like that is the people working at the company
Again, the company is made up of people & the actions of those people determin the culture. so if “the company” is behaving poorly, that says some very bad things about the employees.
Anyway, to cut a long story short, while the little man can definetely have a heart for the gaming industry, the big publishers have no interest in products if they’re not making big bucks off of it - and can, will and have burned companies to the ground for profit.
The majority of the people I’ve worked with since I graduated & started working have been passionate about what they do (though I’m an accountant, so it’s hard to tell sometimes, the guys/gals in marketing & sales are much better at being passionate).
Well, I can say without a doubt that most large retail chains really are INTRINSICALLY EVIL when it comes to games. Having worked with a good publisher (Interplay), and a development company that self published, I guarantee that big retailers don’t give a hoot about the gaming industry. Their goal is basically to wring every last cent they can from their customers. The easiest way to do this is to punch the snot out of developers and publishers. They actively try to hinder publishers and developers from creating alternate sources of distribution, and they will break the rules whenever they stand to gain from it. The nature of the beast is intrinsically evil. That’s why I only buy from Steam or Impulse nowadays. Having seen first hand the shenanigans that the big guys pull, I guarantee you that they are a necessary evil in the games industry, but still evil in the end.
Publishers are a hit or miss thing. It depends on the case really. There are naturally cases where publishers do well by the developers and community, but there are many where they do harm. I’d say that the only way to really understand the games publishing industry is really to work in it. It’s not really all that similar to most other endeavors. The publisher I’ve worked with had an excellent relationship with their developers and bent over backwards to try to provide them the support they needed to get things shipped in as good condition as possible. However, some of my co-workers over the years have worked for publishers that… weren’t motivated in that direction.
there have been a lot of good points made about the industry and the market and funding and so forth, but i think for most people, none of that stuff enters into their thought process… for me, there are games that i know for a fact, beyond a shadow of doubt, im going to buy when they come out. this would be one of those games. since i KNOW that im going to buy it, then theres no reason not to buy it NOW when my money might benefit the development (and me, through getting it faster and maybe of a higher quality)… so, i bought it.
i didnt buy it to make a statement about the way the industry works, or as a gesture of generosity… my contribution was wholly motivated by self-interest… i want another great ARPG. badly. pre-paying should make it more likely i actually GET that great ARPG… certainly it shouldnt hurt my chances. so, ill roll the dice 
Well, there’s the event where you wind up with a lighter wallet and no game, ofcourse
But it’ll definetely help the game the sooner you donate…
In which case, CE nee ILE will be hard pressed to develop a game and have faith in their work again… such is life. Pressure’s on them now.
Hm, I think pressure is a rather stressful, anxious and depressing motivator - I don’t wish pressure upon anybody. I saw the donation as a donation, I’d be glad if I get the game in return. If not, meh. I’ve bought Titan Quest 4 times and Immortal Throne 3 times - and the ILE employees didn’t get a penny from that, while they did the actual work. That felt kinda wrong. Now I know the money went to them directly (well, part of them), so I have peace with it.
thats why i say i rolled the dice on the legendary edition its a gamble, but all things considered, a fairly small one. if my $50-ish wager pays out one tenth the entertainment value i got out of TQ, id consider that to be a big win. and if nothing comes of it at all, well, im only out $50. its not insignificant, but its not the end of the world.
even considering the bad experience ive had with this kind of thing in the past (ill never pre-pay for a stardock product ever again after demigod) im still willing to take a shot… i guess its just the degenerate gambler in me
which probably explains why the variable-reward mechanics of ARPGs appeal so strongly to me… hmm…
Are you crazy? Maybe…
A lot of other indie developers use donations to get themselves started. It sometimes ends up with a product, sometimes not, but if the idea is good it’s worth the risk.
I must admit, I didn’t think I would donate. I never played Titan Quest, and the website is perhaps a little light at the moment (This will hopefully change when concept art or screenshots are put into the “media” section). However, I just thought I should do my bit, because I like the idea. A good idea can go a long way, with a little help.
Mind you, even the “legendary fan edition” is a measly $48, which is the equivalent of £30 and change for me, so it seems like the final game may be well worth that sort of price.
I wish you guys all the best, and just remember to ignore the doubters! Constructive criticism is always worth listening to, but those that say “it’ll never work” are best ignored.
I’d also suggest (if you haven’t already) getting in touch with other small developers, to see if they have any advice. Plenty of helpful, friendly people out there.
Hey Panthro!
Try TQ:IT and you change your mind. Put every details to max in options menu, and the game visualisation is cool nowadays yet!
TQ:IT gameplay says more than any words…
But seriously, I have no problems donating. I want to see them succeed because I know what the crew is at least capable of; and they made up a good years worth of playing for me.
I’ll try and find TQ, but not sure where sells it. I had hoped Gamersgate would have it, but no luck. Might have to get it from Amazon or something.
Should also mention, if it wasn’t clear from my first post, that I have donated (or rather, pre-ordered!). Seems more than worth the risk.
I would even consider donating more, based on future developments.
You can get TQ from Steam also.
Steam works (cheaper) and if you consider serious then you can get it from amazon
TQ:IT Gold Edition. (the best choice -my pick)