DA Stacking and the Crucible

Imho PTH cap isn’t necessary I would leave it obtainable if someone want to build it like that, but by changing some other stuff those kind of builds would be highly ineffective when it comes to killing speed. In other word if someone want to achieve immortality let him be but by achieving it he should be forced to sacrifice so much offense that his killing speed would be close to retaliations build killing speed when facing ranged enemies. I hope you get my point, uber unkillable slow killing sped tanks on one side of spectrum, uber fast killing glass cannons on other side and much wider space in between for making/balancing builds than it is now.

On contrary OA stacking is almost as easy as DA stacking if not easier. To go back bit in GD past, when lvl cap was 80 2.5k OA was widely considered as minimum requirement, now lv cap is 100 and still 2.5k OA is widely considered minimum required. In mean time minimum DA skyrocketed from around 2k to more than 3k. Isn’t that huge disparity that is screaming that OA requirement should be at lest upped for few hundreds?
I dont see how that hits badly anything it just force you to reconsider your defensive options and actually use to some small extent offensive approach even when making retaliation tanks. Not to mention that even before AoM I had retaliation hybrid with ~3k OA and it worked nicely, not so tanky like his brethren but with smart gameplay more than capable of putting down anything.
When I touched gameplay I have to write this also, I cant shake of feeling that people in GD community became somewhat lazy and they all want to have build that is capable of crushing anything on its way w/o much effort or player skill. It seams like everyone wants to play with one hand in the pocked w/o thinking and just go around and smash everything to smithereens. Anything less than that is deemed as to hard. Whats the point in not having real challenge in making build as well as in playing that build?

Pretty sure 2.7k is widely-regarded as the recommended minimum for OA, for what it’s worth.

I could swear that by browsing forum last two days I stumbled on few gladiator 170 capable builds that have unbuffed OA in range of 2.5k.
But lets agree that its 2.7k, that’s 200 OA requirement increase and on other side you have at least 1k DA requirement increase.

So, in short, after a lot of crying from the elite. We are back from:

  • Soldier & shield
  • Arcanist & CDR
  • DA
    to just:
  • Soldier & shield
  • Arcanist & CDR.

Alrighty! At least, the former 2 is good and can be used to show off “well thought-out” build thus show off all the eliteness :smiley:

It’s utterly fun to see how poll is irrelevant. And I thought I pay the same price to play the game as other. Turn out, only a few selected feedback are welcomed. Gotta keep that in mind.

Well so far nothing is set in stone and we still have no idea how devs are going to settle this. So “only a few selected feedbacks are welcomed” is an unfair thing to say. Ultimately it’s their decision and obviously they know more about the current state of the game than any of us. Personally i’m grateful they even consider doing something about it. This kind of support is very rare nowadays.

Not sure what opinions we ignored considering my active participation in the discussion here. If a discussion is happening with opposing viewpoints, how in the world is everybody’s opinion going to be incorporated, since that seems to be what you consider your opinion being “welcome”?

Using the “elite” or “casual” labels seems to be a very common tactic when something is not going the way somebody wants. Obviously it’s this “other” group of players that swayed the devs! The irony here is that most of the time it’s this “elite” you are picturing that’s upset with us for making the game easier or more accessible, so it seems we’re just not on either side!

I’m not even sure how the direction of the changes we are making is in any way conflicting with the results of this poll nor how you came to the conclusion you stated based on the changes I listed considering that the Crucible is receiving important changes that alleviate some of the reasons Why DA stacking has gotten popular to begin with. Only thing I can come up with is that I (a developer) disagreed with your (a player’s) opinion, and thus your feedback is not welcome.

I mean…in the end, game development isn’t a democracy or done by committee. A poll made by players and voted upon by a tiny fraction of a fraction of the playerbase is not going to take precedence over our own experience and decision-making. Player input can be (and often is) considered, but ultimately the decision lies with us.

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Imho PTH cap isn’t necessary I would leave it obtainable if someone want to build it like that, but by changing some other stuff those kind of builds would be highly ineffective when it comes to killing speed. In other word if someone want to achieve immortality let him be but by achieving it he should be forced to sacrifice so much offense that his killing speed would be close to retaliations build killing speed when facing ranged enemies. I hope you get my point, uber unkillable slow killing sped tanks on one side of spectrum, uber fast killing glass cannons on other side and much wider space in between for making/balancing builds than it is now.

Fully agree with this. Make people heavily penalized when opting for extreme DA. I would like to quote myself on this:

  • Create an inverse correlation between OA and DA. In the case of super DA, make it affect OA negatively, meaning even though you cannot die in W150-170, you also have no hope of clearing it. Players are then forced to strike a balance between OA and DA.

But again, the solutions is never just a single buff/nerf but a collection of changes to achieve better balance. Why don’t people invest in OA instead to increase clearing speed? Because throughout the course of GD history, OA is being nerfed so heavily that people just want enough OA to get you a good crit hit chance. Ah those good old days with 4x multipliers!! Too bad DA is gonna follow the footstep of OA.

What about a kind of playstyle that promotes extreme killing speed, sacrificed by tons of defense, until the point where your char will die if you stand in one place for more than 2s on the AoE pools. Make changes so that we have 3 styles: high risk high reward, low risk low reward, and average risk average reward.

The problem with DA builds is, after all, low risk high reward.

Ask and ye shall receive:

float getPTH(float oa, float da) {

	float base_pth = 90.0;

	// avoid discontinuities
	oa = oa <= 0 ? 1.0 : oa;
	da = da <= 0 ? 1.0 : da;

	if (oa == da) {
		return base_pth;
	else if (oa > da) {
		return ((((oa/((da/3.5)+oa))*300)*0.3)+(((((oa*3.25)+10000)-(da*3.25))/100)*0.7))-50;
	else {

		float big_af = 91.0/4000; // big adjustment factor
		float small_af = 140.0/9; // small adjustment factor

		// Maclaurin Series approximations
		// https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taylor_series#List_of_Maclaurin_series_of_some_common_functions

		// exp(x)
		float x = (oa - da)*big_af/base_pth;
		float exp_approx =
			+ x
			+ x*x/2
			+ x*x*x/6
			+ x*x*x*x/24
			+ x*x*x*x*x/120
			+ x*x*x*x*x*x/720;
			// can add more terms for better accuracy

		// log(x)
		// since oa < da, |x| < 1
		x = 1 - oa/da;
		float log_approx =
			- x
			- x*x/2
			- x*x*x/3
			- x*x*x*x/4
			- x*x*x*x*x/5
			- x*x*x*x*x*x/6
			- x*x*x*x*x*x*x/7;
			// can add more terms for better accuracy

		return base_pth*exp_approx + small_af*log_approx;

Sample Data (http://www.cpp.sh/9v4a7):

Assuming OA = 2820:

0, 174.123
100, 170.977
200, 167.818
300, 164.675
400, 161.55
500, 158.441
600, 155.347
700, 152.27
800, 149.207
900, 146.159
1000, 143.125
1100, 140.105
1200, 137.099
1300, 134.106
1400, 131.125
1500, 128.157
1600, 125.201
1700, 122.256
1800, 119.323
1900, 116.402
2000, 113.491
2100, 110.591
2200, 107.701
2300, 104.821
2400, 101.951
2500, 99.0908
2600, 96.24
2700, 93.3983
2800, 90.5655
2900, 87.7631
3000, 85.0343
3100, 82.3776
3200, 79.7908
3300, 77.2714
3400, 74.8172
3500, 72.4261
3600, 70.0962
3700, 67.8256
3800, 65.6123
3900, 63.4547
4000, 61.3512
4100, 59.3
4200, 57.2998
4300, 55.3491
4400, 53.4463
4500, 51.5903
4600, 49.7796
4700, 48.0131
4800, 46.2895
4900, 44.6077
5000, 42.9664
5100, 41.3648
5200, 39.8016
5300, 38.2759
5400, 36.7866
5500, 35.333
5600, 33.9139
5700, 32.5286
5800, 31.1762
5900, 29.8558
6000, 28.5667
6100, 27.308

Suggestion for the Game Guide:

When PTH < 90, the game will calculate a close approximation of:

pth = 90exp((91/360000)(oa - da)) + (140/9)*log(oa/da)

Almost every class has a passive or long-duration skill that gives either flat or %OA without a corresponding increase in DA.

  • Arcanist: Inner Focus
  • Demo: Flame Touched
  • Occultist: Blood of Dreeg
  • Necro: Spectral Binding
  • Soldier: Oleron’s Rage, Fighting Spirit
  • Inquisitor: Aura of Conviction, Deadly Aim
  • Nightblade: Anatomy of Murder (not quite straight OA, but %Cunning is somewhat similar)

Meanwhile, the only equivalent skills with DA and no equivalent OA increase are Nightblade’s Shadow Dance and Inquisitor’s Word of Renewal. As far as I’m aware, no class has a skill that straight-up gives %DA without skill mods.

Do you test the game before making the patch or the number are just come out of tactical thinking? Dodge, aka, DA, since forever in my experience are worthless unless you can dodge 90 or even 100% of the hit. The latest debate I can think of is Diablo 3 dexterity’s value on dodge. Everyone agree it’s useless. It’s fun to have some, but useless. If you are being 1hit, you will get 1 hit, even the chance of it is only 60%.

I don’t see we having any other “layered defense” anywhere so, most of the fun build making available by DA is destroyed. The same glass cannon will stop functioning. Honestly, if I get hit for 30k HP w/ max res and I have 20k HP. Some 10% nerf to the incoming DPS won’t help.

Nice prep talk on it’s not a democracy or debunk the “elite” vs “casual”. But yeah, DA is there for years and suddenly when the elite whine, you look into it? But when the “casual” say, stop whining, you won’t stop looking into it? So…the point of “elite” vs" casual" stand? It’s like, the tree is there since forever, noone care. But one day, some guys tell you to cut it down for some reasons, mostly, it’s a thorn on their side, some other guys tell you not to, and what you do tell us exactly which side of “telling” you obey the most.

Lastly, any opinion/ fortune-telling into my prediction of we come down from 3 to 2 possible type of builds?

But, honestly, Im all for change. Im still enjoying the game, will 100% sure keep enjoying the upcoming patch. None of the change really effect me. Just find it funny on how the whole scenario plays out.

I think Crate should lower DA bonus per Physicque point, slightly buff Cunning and Spirit (So less all depends-pure Physique builds), rather than nerf other DA sources.


And devs usually have metrics the majority of players don’t have. IDK how Crate collects this metrics, but some APRG devs I know collect detailed metrics on builds and how people play them. (POE’s GGG is rather obsessive about this.) This way, players do contribute to decision making process of the devs, just not in so many words.

Also this!

Diablo II has this “Magic Find” stat that promotes high risk high reward playstyle. Maybe Crate can increase the percentage of blue/purple dropping by a fraction if a boss is killed under x second? This could encourage people to put investment in aggressiveness to get increased chance of better loot. Devs don’t even have to announce the threshold, just that “the faster you kill a hero/boss/nemeses the better chance you have to get better loot.”

They’ve listed a few of the changes they’re making already that will make 151+ more manageable. +35% all resists means the odds of you dying to RR become much smaller.
The combo of boss damage being lowered, boss phys. RR weakened and player getting 8% PDR means the damage you take will be significantly lower which puts less need on extreme defense.

Even though you’ll still need defense, at least it’ll be shifted to a source that is “free” and every build can access it.

I think the preliminary patch notes look good, especially enemy Fumble being reduced in effectiveness is welcome—50% miss pools with high uptime in a high speed kill-or-be-killed environment is just too punishing for the difficulty introduced in 151+.
If a few other trouble points get addressed such as shotgun attacks, Reaper, multiple Myrmidons chain healing, stacking RR, etc. it could become workable for builds without those mega defenses.


You’re not high, I do recall encountering such builds as well. They were Inquisitor Hybrids and had DA reduction to proc Deadly Aim

Interesting suggestion, but I am not sure if this is possible. The current DA stacking meta allows immortal killing machines. They’d have to get crafty with the code to make it so that the DA route gimps their offense. This solution does however keep the immortal build playstyle open to those who are interested
True OA is as easy to as DA. But the point is some classes or specifically some builds still have trouble stacking them I don’t see any reason to increase enemy DA. We all know the importance of OA. DA allowing fast kill speed and immortality is what screwed it up. A balance b/w OA and DA is what classic GD was about (barring a few exceptions), I personally feel the proposed changes might push us towards that direction

Btw JoV minimum cap for OA is 2.7k and speaking from experience I am sure you’d agree it is too low even for MC. 3k effective OA is what most builds strive for. This is the reason why I disagree on the point about enemy DA buff.

I think this has been a problem even before the likes of jajaja and Most were part of the forums. The problem isn’t the players thinking like this, it’s a problem when build posters start taking this approach as they are the trend setters.
Of course one can’t blame them for doing so and many of the DA stacking build posters can be seen arguing in favor of nerfs.

I can understand the doubts regarding PTH cap value but post-patch player feedback can address that

I should have used the word “builds”, my bad

Your argument mostly becomes null and void when you use this word. It clearly shows you are not able to understand the other side of the argument. None of the people in favor of the nerfs are using this word, so maybe if the DA people don’t want to see things nerfed then they should come up with better arguments rather than use cheap words like “elite”, “casual” and “whine”.

They don’t obey any one. The guys who are screaming for nerfs were “elites” even back in the days and their voices were completely unheard when the devs nerfed Pierce and Shield meta. So no, they don’t listen to us.
They listen to long-winded feedbacks that most of us type up and guess what? 99% Feedback threads by the “elites” are about adding build diversity and buffs.

Even now we have players making non-DA focused builds (w/o Mirror and shield) for 170 crucible. So you couldn’t be further away from the truth even if you tried to.
The people who’ll suffer from their changes are the ones whose builds relied solely on DA and less on player skill.

Also Superfluff’s response to you is the best one, you are not up for change. It’s not wrong to hate on nerfs, I did too but I am much more vocal about it. Cause that’s how I can let the devs know that at least one person is not pleased about things. They won’t know about things unless we tell them, their not psychics after all. They got bridges to build and chickens to kill, balancing only comes in the middle when we bring it up or something is obviously broken

If the goal is to prevent DA exploits in Crucible but also to protect builds in the campaign then something of a conflict will inevitably arise between the two. To that end, a rather simple solution would be to have Lokarr declare you unfit for crucible if your DA is above a certain threshold. No balancing required just a big 'ol ban hammer!

I love how people keep saying Elite or Casual, without putting actual substance in these words.

Can’t wait until the patch hits, I suspect this is only the beginning of a massive complaining wave.

I giggle a lot reading this thread.
Let me tell you something. Immortal builds are there since titan quest, how long ago was it? 10-15 years? Can’t even remember. Back then we even have 100% CDR builds, 3 second to kill any boss, any difficulty build due to %hp reduction. A lot of “breaking the core” mechanic, still titan quest still being loved and played today. I don’t see anyone whine about any of those “breaking” build. Why? IDK for sure, but on top of my mind, some reasons go up

  • People back there are not as a whiner as of today. They play what they think is fun. Not fun for some, fun for some. No one doing any crimes, why the hate on 1 side?
  • Titan quest and Grim Dawn is a pure SINGLE PLAYER game. Zero ladderboard. Zero competitive playing. So…what stop anyone from making a build which won’t use some breaking mechanic? What stop anyone from playing anyway they like? After all, what is the different if you can finish something in 10mins or 20mins? The rest of player base will give you a medal or something? What crucible bring after all? A challenge? Which what reward? some loot? EGO? Who really care? As long as you enjoy it, it fine. As long as I’m enjoy it, it fine.

If you don’t like DA, don’t use it, making a build without it any enjoy yourself. If someone like DA let they play it, what’s the harm in here anyway? Do their toons affect your toons somehow, someway? I can guarantee you that you can still doing anything you like and stop doing anything you don’t w/o ruining the fun of others.

Yet, why do you guys suggest destroying other’s fun? Because DA is a thorn of your ego. You guys see “easy” builds “compete” which your “well thought-out” builds and thus devalue your build. You guys want to stay with elite attitude aka only my way is the right way. other’s way is wrong way. yes?

So, I think the word “whine” and “elite” which I use perfectly describe the situation here.

Honestly, when someone cry about “balance” in a single player game, I lol so much. If there is 1 build that can finish something in 1 min, the other in 3 mins, you will only play that 1 min build and NEVER touch the other? NO.

You guys gonna make DA partially useless cause you can’t make the last 20 waves of the crucible as enjoyable as other parts of the game?

So what you guys gonna do when the new crucible wave come out? keep on nerfing something else because player still has to stack something to beat the new content?

No wonder you guys have a lot of “pressing” task to do.

Did I just see 1 post got deleted? The one by Sinobu.